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Laying down big hands


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Hi guys,Here's the situation. 1 table sitngo. I catch my cards early and knock 4 players out. I'm big stack with 5500 chips and 3 others left (all around 2000-2500 chips). Money spots are for 3 players.I'm UTG with AK off. Blinds are 75/150. I raise to 450. Dealer is short stacked and reraises 300 more. Blinds fold. I figure he has Qs or Js. I decide to just call and see what happens. Flop comes 5 7 K rainbow. I check. He raises half his remaining stack. At this point, I'm thinking that he's betting to steal the pot and/or to see where he's at. If he's made a set, he would probably go all-in (based on his play thus far).I also see myself with probably the best hand. Assuming he's not playing 5s or 7s, he can only have me beat with AA or KK, or perhaps have me tied with AK. I doubt the KK is there since I have one of them and the board has the other.I raise him all his remaining chips and he calls. He flips over AA.Was my decision process (and the fact that I had 5000 to 2000 in chips, trying to knock him out) right? Did I make a bad read or was it just a bad beat?I've seen a similar situation on TV. Keller had AQ off and Layne Flack had KK. Keller raises preflop, Flack comes over the top and Keller calls.Flop comes Q x y rainbow. Keller checks, Flack throws in chips (looking like he was trying to buy the pot). Commentators are going on how Keller has the flop he wants and if he doesn't at least call or go over the top, he really shouldn't be playing poker. Keller goes all-in and Flack quickly calls. Turn and river are strictly procedural and Flack knocks Keller out.Have you ever heard of players laying down top pair with top kicker? I remember reading about Farha in the 2003 WSOP catching 2 pair on the river and laying down when the other player bet into him (his read was right as the other had made his set off the turn). Mind you, that was live play vs. my online play!Welcome any comments...Thanks!...Pat

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Its not an easy play and something I think you just have to get a feel for. If you have a read on your opponent that you are beat, just lay it down. If not then just try and figure it out from the betting, position, chip stacks, and take your best guess.One thing that I read (I think it was a cardplayer article but don't remember who or when) that always sticks with me is: "Top pair with top kicker is the hand that most frequently gets people knocked out". Be wary of it, its a decent hand but its also very easily beat.

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I think I would have done the exact same thing. If he has aces, he has aces. You've still got 3000 chips. Don't let it bother you and play good poker for the rest of the tourney.If he had 5000 and you had 2500 it would be a different story. I'd probably be a little more cautious. But, knowing me, I may have gone out. What better flop can you ask for? Top pair with top kicker is not a bad hand to go out on, although getting knocked out on the bubble sucks.

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Your read was off. First of all, yes, pro's do lay down top pair/high kicker. This is not that strong a had. And btw, Queens are not "top pair" anyway. AA is always top pair, kid. You didn't have top pair, he did.Ever hear of flopping two pair? A set? So many combinations of hands had you dominated there, and judging by his betting, he totally had you. He would not bet almost half his chips on the flop "to see where he was at". LOL. This makes no sense, not even to a drunk monkey. I'm sorry, I know that's harsh, but c'mon... have you ever bet 50% of your stack to find out where you were? If so, let's play for real money. I'm sorry, but you got steamrolled here. He reeled you in, hook, line, and sinker.Learn from it.

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Thanks ddudley and others for your comments.JFarrell20, although harsh and cold: a) I don't think you quite captured the spirit of the post. Just a simple question by a newbie. B) The only thing I take offense to from your banter is being called a kid. Your read is totally off there! :D

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Your read was off.  First of all, yes, pro's do lay down top pair/high kicker.  This is not that strong a had.  And btw, Queens are not "top pair" anyway.  AA is always top pair, kid.  You didn't have top pair, he did.Ever hear of flopping two pair? A set?  So many combinations of hands had you dominated there, and judging by his betting, he totally had you.  He would not bet almost half his chips on the flop "to see where he was at". LOL.  This makes no sense, not even to a drunk monkey.  I'm sorry, I know that's harsh, but c'mon... have you ever bet 50% of your stack to find out where you were?  If so, let's play for real money.  I'm sorry, but you got steamrolled here.  He reeled you in, hook, line, and sinker.Learn from it.
Well, definitely a little mean spirited, but whatever ... you are wrong about "top pair" though. He did have top pair. Top pair is when you have the top pair on the board, not when you have aces. If the flop comes 432, and you have 7-4 in your hand, you still have top pair.
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Jfarrell, no need to be that harsh. Some of the stuff you were saying is incorrect anyway, which sounds really stupid when said in a smartass tone of voice. Not sure where you learned your lingo, but if you have AQ and the board is Q high, Q is top pair. "top pair" refers to the board, kiddo (or whatever word you called the original poster). Anyway, on to the question.Pat, you'll have to learn to through away much bigger hands than top pair top kicker if you want to be a good player. Your example comes from a SNG, which is way different than a mulit-table tournament. In big tournaments, you may have to get rid of 2 pair, a J high flush, etc. Remember the Josh Arieh hand in the WSOP where he folded a K high flush to Murphy's full house? That's why Josh is a great player. Again, SNG's are different. They're like final table play. But yes, you're on to something about laying hands down. Being able to do that in the right situation is a high level skill.By the way, no way I fold the hand you were talking about. You absolutely made the right call there.

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The first big tourney I ever played, somewhere in California I had just made it into the money, 27 players left and I'm in the BB with AKh, Huck Seed, who I kinda idolized at the time, still do kinda, anyhow huck raises from late position as he has been doing on a fairly regular basis. So to make a long story short I played my hand like a sissy and lost most of my stack to his one pair of pocket fours. The next day huck was playing chess in the lobby so I asked him about how he thinks I should of played the hand. "Fold" At the time this sounded preposterous to me, I mean who is going to fold AK suited in the BB in a limit tourney, especially to someone like huck. I kept asking him about different ways I could have played it and ya I could have won the pot I believe if I would have played it right but the fact of the matter is that I should have folded and enjoyed my in the money big stack. I was so pissed I'd been outplayed I lost the rest the rest of my stack real quick, showed him. Go with your gut and sometimes ya got to lay biggies down. While maybe in your situation you could have doulbled the big blind or even called then assessing the strength of your opponent. Just one of those things, personally I think to much emphasis is put on the 3 times the big blind thing, while I realize the concept it just seems like such an automatonish play. I like calling with big slick then see whats going on.

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Yeah, its very possible that I'd do the same thing as well. You've got a good hand once the flop hits. I wouldn't put him on trips because of the re-raise pre-flop so I doubt he's playing 55 or 77 unless you've been loose and he doesn't think you really have a hand for your raise. When he bets half his stack on the flop I'd pause and think about what he could have. He could have AA, KK, QQ, or AK. He may even be bluffing with AQ or a smaller pair, but that doesn't seem likely.I think your thought process was pretty good. You didn't think he had trips, and two pair seems unlikely. KK is also unlikely given that you can see 2 K's already. AA is very possible (and true in this case) given his re-raise of your initial bet. Whether I fold to his half-stack bet or put him all in would depend on what I had seen of him as a player through the earlier stages of the sit-n-go. If his play seemed to indicate he would make that kind of bet only with something like AA or KK, then you fold. If you think he may have AK, a lower pair, or a complete bluff, then you call. And you know that even if he does have AA you will still have an alright stack.As someone else mentioned, if you were the shorter stack, or it was a multi-table tournament, then I'd probably be much more cautious and likely lay it down, but in this case I don't think you really did anything wrong. You could have made a good lay-down, but it wasn't a horrible play to call.

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Jfarrell, no need to be that harsh.  Some of the stuff you were saying is incorrect anyway, which sounds really stupid when said in a smartass tone of voice.  Not sure where you learned your lingo, but if you have AQ and the board is Q high, Q is top pair.  "top pair" refers to the board, kiddo (or whatever word you called the original poster).  Anyway, on to the question.
OK, second poster telling me that guy had top pair... again, if he had top pair why didn't he win? Because he didn't have top pair. Technically, yes, he had top pair on the board. But did he have BEST PAIR? Censored no! I wasn't trying to be mean, I was just being brutally honest, the guy needs to learn to lay down top pair when he can easily be beaten. Even John Juanda said something on his website about: "If you're not sure what a strong hand is...top pair with top kicker is not a strong hand..." He's right, a lot of people overplay this hand, and get knocked out with it. So everybody just calm down.Words of wisdom: I've noticed that in every major tournament... the players that end up near the front almost always had to make at least 1 MONSTER laydown along the way. Keep this in mind!!! Sooner or later you'll come across a monster hand that you are behind in. You'll need to learn to get away from these hands! This is probably one of the most difficult things to do in poker, but believe me, it's what separates the Champions from the rest. Maybe that is why I was harsh... b/c it's a tough lesson to learn and I'm trying to help you out.BELIEVE ME... ask Daniel... he'll probably agree that in every bigtime tournament he's won, he's had a monster hand that he had to get away from b/c he sensed he was beat! TRUST ME!!!
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Dude, no one is saying you don't have to laydown big hands. Read my post and you will see I say that.You got bashed for being a jerk to a newbie and making an idiotic statement about him not having top pair. Then you try to cover your ass by saying it wasn't the best pair. Uh, again, not the point. We BELIEVE YOU about laying down hands. No one argued any different.

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Here's the situation. 1 table sitngo. I catch my cards early and knock 4 players out. I'm big stack with 5500 chips and 3 others left (all around 2000-2500 chips). Money spots are for 3 players.
Ok, so you are in a comfortable spot right before the money.You can have one of two mindsets.1) Sit back with your lead and let the rest of them battle it out. They will knock out each other and you will have an easy 2nd or 3rd spot without doing any more work.However, someone will eventually pass you in chips and minimize your chances of first place.2) Remain aggressive and continue to use your big cards to build your chip stack, remain in the lead and strive for the first place money.
I'm UTG with AK off. Blinds are 75/150. I raise to 450. Dealer is short stacked and reraises 300 more. Blinds fold. I figure he has Qs or Js. I decide to just call and see what happens.
This seems like a very reasonable play. You are not going to shy away from playing Big Slick, but with your chip lead, there is no need to risk too much if the flop does not come your way.
Flop comes 5 7 K rainbow.
Alright, you hit the flop that you were looking for.Top Pair-Top Kicker. Very strong hand.There are very good odds that your hand is best. And with your pre-flop read, your confidence should be high.
I check.
If you are worried that you top pair is beat, then it would be important to place a bet here. Your opponent's reaction to your bet should provide the information that you need. More than likely, he will fold, giving you the pot right there. But this would be the safest option.The only reason to check here is to induce him to make a bet. It should only be done if you are confident that you have the best hand and are not afraid of giving him a free card. You will be sacraficing the chance to gain information here, so once you check you must already be confident enough to call any bet that follows.
He raises half his remaining stack. At this point, I'm thinking that he's betting to steal the pot and/or to see where he's at. If he's made a set, he would probably go all-in (based on his play thus far).
And now things get complicated.If you had bet after the flop and he had come back over the top of you with a strong raise, you could begin to seriously consider the possibility that you are behind.However, after checking, it is difficult to determine what this bet means.You now have to try to distinguish between the following possibilities:1) He has you beat (AA) 2) He has QQ , thinks he still has the best hand because you checked the flop, and wants to make sure you don't get to see the turn.3) He is on a stone cold bluff (AQ) and expects you to fold any pair smaller than the Kings.
I also see myself with probably the best hand. Assuming he's not playing 5s or 7s, he can only have me beat with AA or KK, or perhaps have me tied with AK. I doubt the KK is there since I have one of them and the board has the other. I raise him all his remaining chips and he calls.
As I said before, you should only check the flop if you are willing to put money into this hand. So your play is consistant. And at this point, you had to make it.I believe that putting him all in was also the right way to go.With so much mony in the pot, there is no need to slowplay any further. You determined that your hand was best and are being aggressive with it.That is the way poker should be played.If he is sitting on Queens or Jacks like you originally predicted, he will be forced to fold without having a chance to draw out on you. The worst case scenario is that you misread the situation completely and are drawing to a 2-outer.But even if you lose this pot, you simply have switched chip positions with your opponent and still have plenty of ammo to fight on.However if things go correctly, you have knocked out another opponent, have put yourself into the money, and have built up a massive chip lead which will likely lead you to first place.--cnm
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Tough hand, do not think you played it all that badly. Many people will play it many different ways. Rather than criticize, I would like to offer one more possible way to play this hand UTG. Call the BB pre-flop. He would surely have raised with his AA. This would have told that you were probably up against a made hand. Depending the size of his raise, you can decide whether or not to continue. If you continue (meaning he under bets his AA), you would raise given the flop. Now, with a smaller PP that did not hit the flop, he has to let go. If he calls your raises you have to be very leary.This is one way where you may have been able to get away. AK is not a made hand. Right off the bat, you are on the come. Just because the flop hit you with a big pair, there are still a lot of possibilities for your opponent to be holding.Good luck, there is much to learn. Keep reading and posting, every bit of info helps.

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Thanks Coran!I think the betting on the flop is good advice (to retrieve information) any time there is uncertainty. I catch myself slowplaying too often (which players pickup on or sometimes it burns me), or check-raising to find information which is actually more costly if you don't have the goods and your opponent comes back over the top. (1 bet vs. 2 bets to find information).I think the reason I checked it was (like you said): 1) I was confident that my hand was best 2) With him only having 1000 chips left and a chance to eliminate, I wanted him to bet into me 3) Having such a large pot, if I managed to win it, my chip lead would be overwhelming.Too bad it backfired.If I had bet smaller and he had quickly re-raised all-in (reading it as a non-bluff), I could have saved some chips. On other news, last night I played a SNG. When it became heads up, I tested the waters with: a) Daniel's any 2 cards can win theory B) Knowing my opponent bluffed rarely c) Knowing my opponent put a lot of value in any 2 face cards or Ax. I clawed from 3000 to 8000 chip underdog to finish him with 9-2 off vs. his A-Q. (He raised minimum bet preflop, I called, flop came 2-2-7, I checked, he went all-in, I called). He wasn't too thrilled about that, but oh well, that's poker!...Pat

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Quick question about your read: You mention that the dealer is a short stack. With queens, why would he want to give you a chance to outplay him on the flop? A short stack would be likely to put in all of the money and hope that his queens hold up. The same can be said about his bet on the flop. Why would he bet so little? He wants to make sure that he keeps you in the hand. The other question that I have is, why not put him all in before the flop? If you would consider folding on the flop, then you should have considered folding before the flop. If you are going to call his bet on the flop anyway, why not bet the flop and give him a chance to fold? The reason that you think that he is just trying to steal the pot is because you check to him and give him a chance to bet. If you take the lead and bet out, there is still a remote possibility that he could fold aces.It would have made the decision much easier for you if you had either put him in before the flop or folded. On the flop, if you would even consider folding when a king hit, you should have folded before the flop. If you could consider K 7 5 a bad flop for AK, what would be a good flop? A K K? You're beat by aces. A K 2? You are still beat by aces, or kings (I've actually had AK against AA with that flop). The fact of the matter is that putting all the money in before the flop means that you don't have to think after the flop. Here's the thing: if you hit your flop, and they have QQ or JJ, then they have a chance to fold. That prevents you from knocking them out. If they have AA or KK, they are not going to fold if you hit your flop, and they are DEFINITELY not going to fold if you don't. If they flop a set, and you make a pair, you are going to double them up. Why not put all the money in and hope that you hit your flop or better yet that they fold? You are out of position and you'd rather not be put to a tough decision.

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Hi Srblan,

Quick question about your read: You mention that the dealer is a short stack. With queens, why would he want to give you a chance to outplay him on the flop? A short stack would be likely to put in all of the money and hope that his queens hold up. The same can be said about his bet on the flop. Why would he bet so little? He wants to make sure that he keeps you in the hand.
True - reverse situation, I would probably have done that (if I had Queens, go all-in). But I thought about it - if he thought I was stealing the blinds, an all-in call might scare off a blind stealer. If he wanted to double up, a re-raise would keep me interested (and hope that a K or A didn't fall).
The other question that I have is, why not put him all in before the flop? If you would consider folding on the flop, then you should have considered folding before the flop. If you are going to call his bet on the flop anyway, why not bet the flop and give him a chance to fold? The reason that you think that he is just trying to steal the pot is because you check to him and give him a chance to bet. If you take the lead and bet out, there is still a remote possibility that he could fold aces.It would have made the decision much easier for you if you had either put him in before the flop or folded. On the flop, if you would even consider folding when a king hit, you should have folded before the flop. If you could consider K 7 5 a bad flop for AK, what would be a good flop? A K K? You're beat by aces. A K 2? You are still beat by aces, or kings (I've actually had AK against AA with that flop). The fact of the matter is that putting all the money in before the flop means that you don't have to think after the flop. Here's the thing: if you hit your flop, and they have QQ or JJ, then they have a chance to fold. That prevents you from knocking them out. If they have AA or KK, they are not going to fold if you hit your flop, and they are DEFINITELY not going to fold if you don't. If they flop a set, and you make a pair, you are going to double them up. Why not put all the money in and hope that you hit your flop or better yet that they fold? You are out of position and you'd rather not be put to a tough decision.
That was another consideration. But even though AK is rated a top 4 hand by many people, to me, people do often forget it's still a drawing hand (somebody mentioned it earlier). That's why I don't like putting all my chips in AK preflop. Maybe it's a different style, I just don't like to put all my chips in preflop and gamble.Especially if the hand isn't made and I don't need to gamble.I know I made this post a little while ago, but the response this week has been quite interesting. Thank you all for your comments!One thing I did think about this morning was that even though pros do lay big hands down, the top pair top kicker does trap pros too. I illustrated the Keller vs. Flack incident. I also remember in this year's WSOP, Dave Williams raised preflop with 5-5. Josh re-raised 500,000 with AK (I think it was off, I don't remember). Williams called and checked in the dark. Flop came either (A-5-x) or (K-5-x). I actually think it was the first. Josh went all-in and Williams quickly called with his set.Of course, this was one of Josh Arieh's blowups because he couldn't believe Williams called his 500,000 raise preflop....Pat
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I can only tell you how I would have played that, and note that even that might not be the best.. heh.If the button raises my standard 3Xbb raise, and he is the short stack.. I am going to start immediately asking questions before I call it.1st question is, do I want to double this guy up? -not reallythen I ask, is my AK worth another 300, at this point in the tourney? -no, and then i muck...I assume every player is at least as good(or bad) as I am. In this situation, I would have no reason to continue after his reraise. I would have waited for a bettre situation. I had enough information from his reraise, for me to warrant folding.Now, lets assume I did decide my AK was worth another 300. With that flop, I need to know where this guy is at.... I do not want to put him all in, I want him to make that choice..because, if I bet his stack, and he calls, then its over as far as making decisions... I'm not comfortable with my pair, which is all it is, just a pair... I can't check, cuz he might check, which would prolly confuse me, considering his reraise before flop, and I do not want to be confused at this point..I need him to make a decision.. I bet half his stack.. if he goes over me all in, i fold, if he calls.. then i would figure I'm prolly ahead and he was making a play and is now on a draw of some sort.. then i would put him all in on the turn and still you get the same result, or perhaps you do..I think checking on the flop might have been the biggest leak in this hand... considering position, chip stacks, an previous betting...I get upset mucking 10 6 and the flop is 10 10 6... heh... i always say"'I knew i should have called that big ass bet cuz he was just stealing anyway, what a idiot i am for folding 10 6 offsuit.. arrgh I'm never doing that again... I'm playing any two cards i get from now on!! aint no different from being blinded out, just goes quicker"I say some other things too, but, thats the general jist of it.... then i calm down and stick to my game. :D

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Once you decided to open for 3xbb, considering the size of the stacks, you're pretty much pot committed. Top pair with top kicker, whether online or B&M how can you have enough information to fold intelligently? As Phil Laak says, you can't expect to win if you're always playing scared. If you keep worrying about the obscure hand that can beat you, you can only call or raise when you hold the nuts. And nobody holds the nuts that often. Also if the stacks were exchanged you would get bounced out of the tourney. That's poker.

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Heads up or 3 handed AK is not really a drawing hand, it will win unimproved quite often, especially if you drive one out of the hand with a big raise. All in pre flop is clearly the best if your objective is to get the small stack out, which I agree is your priority.

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