Someone help... settle a bet.

[TheIceman05 0]

This hand caused a whole lot of controversy between my friend and I, and the entire poker room I was at ended up debating the mertis of it. Let me know what you think. Please. There's a bet riding on this.Alright, I'm a pretty solid Hold'em player. I understand the game pretty well, blah blah blah. But a friend of mine told me I needed to learn how to play Pot Limit Omaha, so I decided I'd give it a shot. He's a very strong player, capable of laying down a big hand, making a good read, or bluffing off all his chips. He taught me how to play, and I've noticed he's never gotten tricky with me, or anyone else whose poker skills he respects. I was playing in a 2-5 PL game with 3 solid players (myself, my friend, and another man we'll call PLAYER 3), and 6-7 loose-weak types, when the following hand came up. I need to know what I should've done here.I'm in the small blind, and I'm dealt Kc Kd As 2d Player 3 is UTG, and calls 5. A weak player raises to 10 all day. My friend calls in late position , and I decide to play as well, figuring a pot sized raise might pick me up the pot, but I'd be dead if my friend called me with position and I don't flop a very strong hand. BB calls, and so does UTG. Flop comes down Ks Ts 9c. I check, unwilling to bet into a dangerous board as the first to act. The under the gun player, who I'd seen play VERY well, and very correctly in terms of position and hand protection, immediately fires out a maximum-sized 50 dollar raise. Immediately, I'm pretty positive he has the straight. Everyone folds to my friend on the button, and he calls rather quickly. I think he's either made a set, or, more likely, picked up a flush or FlushAndStraight draw. Getting good odds, I call. Turn comes the 3s, so the board now has a flush on it. I check, the initial raiser bets out $100, and my friend immediately fires in a pot-sized raise of 400$. Okay, so he must have made the flush. There is NO other hand he'd make this bet with, right? I'm pretty sure the guy to my left is going to fold, so I'm really not getting odds to chase my FullHouse, here.... and I'm taking some time, cutting my checks, DESPERATELY hoping to see some sign my buddy's bluffing so I can take the pot away, but he's a rock. Then I think of something. I look back at my hand, and realize I've got the naked Ace of Spades. I think back to how I played the hand. I've been checking and calling with good odds... what does that look like? So, representing the nut hand that I know my opponent can't have (and with 10 outs if he calls), I check-bluff-raise 1200.Eventually, he folds the 9-high flush face up, and says something like, "The nut flush is good." Unable to resist, I show him my top set with the NakedAce flush-card.He was pretty civil about it, but he said that I'd made a poor play. He says if he'd had the J or Q high, he would've called for sure, which makes no sense to me. "Well, you could have been reraising with a worse flush in that case, and then I would HAVE to call" blah blah blah.I realize it was risky, but....So? Good play or beginner's mistake?Sorry this was so long...Ice

[the_stein 0]

although I'm a stud/hold em player I have played my share of omaha and personally think it was a good play on your part.

[TheSandMan 0]

This hand caused a whole lot of controversy between my friend and I, and the entire poker room I was at ended up debating the mertis of it.  Let me know what you think.  Please.  There's a bet riding on this.Alright, I'm a pretty solid Hold'em player.  I understand the game pretty well, blah blah blah.  But a friend of mine told me I needed to learn how to play Pot Limit Omaha, so I decided I'd give it a shot.  He's a very strong player, capable of laying down a big hand, making a good read, or bluffing off all his chips.  He taught me how to play, and I've noticed he's never gotten tricky with me, or anyone else whose poker skills he respects.  I was playing in a 2-5 PL game with 3 solid players (myself, my friend, and another man we'll call PLAYER 3), and 6-7 loose-weak types, when the following hand came up.  I need to know what I should've done here.I'm in the small blind, and I'm dealt   Kc Kd As  2d  Player 3 is UTG, and calls 5.  A weak player raises to 10 all day.  My friend calls in late position , and I decide to play as well, figuring a pot sized raise might pick me up the pot, but I'd be dead if my friend called me with position and I don't flop a very strong hand.  BB calls, and so does UTG.    Flop comes down Ks Ts 9c.  I check, unwilling to bet into a dangerous board as the first to act.  The under the gun player, who I'd seen play VERY well, and very correctly in terms of position and hand protection, immediately fires out a maximum-sized 50 dollar raise.  Immediately, I'm pretty positive he has the straight.  Everyone folds to my friend on the button, and he calls rather quickly.  I think he's either made a set, or, more likely, picked up a flush or FlushAndStraight draw.   Getting good odds, I call.  Turn comes the 3s, so the board now has a flush on it.  I check, the initial raiser bets out $100, and my friend immediately fires in a pot-sized raise of 400$.  Okay, so he must have made the flush.  There is NO other hand he'd make this bet with, right?   I'm pretty sure the guy to my left is going to fold, so I'm really not getting odds to chase my FullHouse, here.... and I'm taking some time, cutting my checks, DESPERATELY hoping to see some sign my buddy's bluffing so I can take the pot away, but he's a rock.  Then I think of something.  I look back at my hand, and realize I've got the naked Ace of Spades.  I think back to how I played the hand.  I've been checking and calling with good odds... what does that look like?  So, representing the nut hand that I know my opponent can't have (and with 10 outs if he calls), I check-bluff-raise 1200.Eventually, he folds the 9-high flush face up, and says something like, "The nut flush is good."  Unable to resist, I show him my top set with the NakedAce flush-card.He was pretty civil about it, but he said that I'd made a poor play.  He says if he'd had the J or Q high, he would've called for sure, which makes no sense to me.  "Well, you could have been reraising with a worse flush in that case, and then I would HAVE to call" blah blah blah.I realize it was risky, but....So?  Good play or beginner's mistake?Sorry this was so long...Ice

Thats not really a poor play. You decided to make a play for the pot, knowing that even if you get called you still have quite a few outs to win the pot anyway. Thoses are situations that are just begging for you to bluff.

[wrto4556 0]

how dangerous...great play. You knew he was capable of making the laydown, you took advantage of it. Although, I believe he might have called with a K or Q high flush... But you can't bluff without a risk of being called in any situation. If called you had 13 good outs. Good read, good analysis, great play.I don't know how my, or anyone elses, opinion will settle the bet, but i'm rooting for you.

[JTPHS 0]

... but.. great read, great play. isn't that what poker is... out thinking your opponent. You made a good read on the situation and made a good judgement of what your friend thinks you have and took advantage of that. Not only that, but you left yourself a lot of out that could turn into an even bigger pot! i would have to say, even though he probably wouldn't admit it, your friend knows it was a good play but won't admit it because he (as would I) feels violated and probably stupid. I think the best thing to do in that situation that your friend is in is to remember that hand and try to learn from it. Admit that it was a good play, but get him back later. I give my admiration to the stones and skills it took to make that play. However, one thing to recognize, I would make a stand to say that your friend made a great laydown because sometimes it's not the calls or bluffs you make... it's the folds. Gotta laydown some winners..anyway, that's my thoughts

[NYSPOKER 0]

All told, I think you made a great play. The only thing I disagree with is showing him your hand. You gave away an aweful lot of information about the way you play.

[tekn0wledg 0]

I gotta say, that was an awesome move! Knowing that he didn't have the nut flush indicates that he could've easily been moved off of his hand with a forceful bet.... not to mention even if you didn't hit another spade, you could've paired the board and gotten the full house to beat it.While it was a bit risky, I think it was an excellent play!And I do agree that showing him the hand was not beneficial in this instance.

[jogsxyz 0]

...and I've noticed he's never gotten tricky with me.....

All told, I think you made a great play.  The only thing I disagree with is showing him your hand.  You gave away an aweful lot of information about the way you play.

I agree with NYSPOKER about not showing the hand. Your friend gives you professional courtesy. Now you screw him and embarrass him at the same time. If I were your friend I would play you hard and never give you advice again.

[tekn0wledg 0]

Now you screw him and embarrass him at the same time. If I were your friend I would play you hard and never give you advice again.

I think that statement is a bit extreme. I mean even Daniel showed a bluff hand to a friend at the table. This is part of the game, moving people off their hand or bluffing a pot etc.... Any good player should be able to appreciate the move and say "nice hand" and actually mean it. That doesn't mean he won't steam, because he probably will, but he has to respect the play nonetheless.

[jklimtsc 0]

Two things: we measure our success in poker in dollars, you read the hand right and made a good play, how do we know it was a good play? You pulled in the chips right?Second, I agree that you shouldn't have showed the hand. I know it's hard to resist when you have clearly outplayed an opponent and made them lay down the best hand but you have to keep them guessing. As for Daniel showing his bluff to Freddy Deeb, there are two huge differences, one Daniel asked Freddy if showing the bluff would be good for the game and Freddy replied yeah, sure. More importantly, this was a huge No-limit heads up situation and Daniel figured that would give him a psychological advantage that would help him win the tournament. It is almost never right to show your cards unless called by an opponent, not only are you giving information to the whole table, but he fact that you basically embarassed your opponent (friend or not) will generally make them play better against you, and that costs you money.

[jogsxyz 0]

Now you screw him and embarrass him at the same time. If I were your friend I would play you hard and never give you advice again.

I think that statement is a bit extreme. I mean even Daniel showed a bluff hand to a friend at the table.

Freddy Deeb was not Daniel Negreanu's mentor. Also they were never soft playing each other. You wouldn't see David Williams making a play like that against Luske.

[tekn0wledg 0]

I agree that some type of taste should be applied when playing a friend and in this case a mentor. However I have to agree that when you are at the table it's a game of skill and meant to be played equally as strong against all opponents.Thus depending on how tastefully he revealed his hand, I think it was not distasteful to display it. I don't think it was the right move, but I don't think it was distasteful either.I think that not displaying the hand could actually hurt the releationship more. Imagine your mentor wondering for months or years what you had on that hand.... it could literally scar someone's play in extreme examples.

[theKAbag 0]

Freddy Deeb was not Daniel Negreanu's mentor.  Also they were never soft playing each other.  You wouldn't see David Williams making a play like that against Luske.

first off, GREAT play. second, when you are at the table, there is no reason to be playing soft with people, be it your friends, mentors, or GOD. the others at the table a most certainly looking to add your money to their stacks, why should you practically GIVE it to them by playing soft? i firmly believe that there are no friends at the poker table. leave friendship at the door.

[jogsxyz 0]

You guys are saps .:evil: The guy screws his buddy and wants a pat on the back .:twisted: Of course while you're not looking he would put a knife in your back. :!:

[TheSandMan 0]

You guys are saps .:evil:   The guy screws his buddy and wants a pat on the back .:twisted:   Of course while you're not looking he would put a knife in your back. :!:

It doesn't sound like that at all. Then again, this is why i don't play against friends for more than 10$ a night. People forget you need to play to win. How is he going to become a better poker player by not making that play? Excatly.

[wrto4556 0]

As I had said earlier, it was a fantastic play. But i'm going to have to agree with the people who are saying showing the hand was a bad move. He was playing straight-forward with you, and then you showed him a bluff. You ruined it. A straight-forward person is easy to play against. If he bets you fold, unless it's a case similar to this one. Now, when he bets you have to think alot more. He's out to get his money back. You may have even pissed him off enough to keep certain info from you that he has recently learned. He may think you getting good enough to start learning it all on your own. That kinda sucks. Any info is good info (even if it's bad info, because you still get insite on how bad players play). Although you won money this time, i'm afraid it's going to cost you money later.I could be completely wrong though. He may respect your play later on and fear you more, which will make you money. But, by his reaction, telling you it was a bad play, it seems he's going to be a little sore ( :wink: ) and will be looking to play better against you.

[jogsxyz 0]

Now if he had made this play againstplayer 3, that would merit kudos. Thisplay against his friend and mentor was guaranteed to succeed. His friend wouldnot be expecting a move like this from anally. The play was taboo. Showing justadded to the offense. Wrestling analogy. 20-man Battle Royale.8 men left. Wrestler A throws his tagteam partner out of the ring. This is treachery not a brilliant strategic move.There are unwritten rules of ethics. Tagteam partners are only to do battle as thefinal two. In today's world friendship and ethicsis passe. Just recently during a huntingtrip a man shoots and kills six of hiscompanions. :evil: We better all watch our backs. :twisted:

[bmwguy525 0]

You guys are saps .:evil:   The guy screws his buddy and wants a pat on the back .:twisted:   Of course while you're not looking he would put a knife in your back. :!:

Jogsxyz - First of you all you're an idiot, and you must be the friend he took for $460.Sandman you made an awesome play. I can't say I disagree or agree with the show. If you were willing to adjust your play in order to show your cards and have people trying to play you off of that, then that's your choice. Just be prepared to adjust your play when you show.Jogsxyz - If this guy's friend didn't want him taking his money, then he should have been sitting at a different table. You play poker to win money, no matter who it's against.

[TheIceman05 0]

Hey, guys. Thanks a whole lot for all the posts. Bet is settled:A few points of interest:1) We agreed that we'd always play balls out against each other. When I said he hadn't gotten tricky with me, it was just an observation, more geared towards the fact that I didn't believe him capable of making a pure bluff here. He's never taken it easy on me though. He beats me like his redheaded step-child in this game most of the time, and I pay him back at the Stud tables.2) Against ANYONE else, I never show that hand. I muck it in a second. I absolutely don't want anyone knowing I'm capable of making a play like that. My image at the table was pretty tight at the time, and I'd been able to pick up a few orphan pots with rags. BUT, I felt an obligation to show the him. My goal at that table wasn't to make money, but to improve my game as much as possible. And his goal was to help me (without losing to me). So showing him the hand gave him unneccessary info about my game, but it's not my goal to beat him in the longrun anyway. I could have told him later, but I just needed him to know I was capable of playing a hand like that, so he'd play stronger against me. Also, we'd agreed recently to leave in 20 minutes, so I wasn't giving much info to the other guys at the table.... well, not for long, anyway. 3) My friend was not upset about the way I played the hand, and in fact grudgingly admitted today that it was a good play and that he never expected it from me.4) He won all his money back and then some in a later session, when he made a similar play against me (with more outs to the nuts), and I called. Of course he made his hand. 5) He admitted he was wrong, and the bet is settled. Terms of bet? Winner gets to see any 10 of the losers hands (as long as both are at the same table, and no arch-nemeses are going to see) that otherwise would have been mucked. Thanks, again, guys. I appreciate all the feedback. If anyone has any specific hold'em questions, maybe I can pay you back. Probably not, but maybe.Iceman

[jayistheman 0]

I gotta say, that was an awesome move!  Knowing that he didn't have the nut flush indicates that he could've easily been moved off of his hand with a forceful bet.... not to mention even if you didn't hit another spade, you could've paired the board and gotten the full house to beat it.While it was a bit risky, I think it was an excellent play!And I do agree that showing him the hand was not beneficial in this instance.

another spade dont matter... omaha has to use 2 cards

[FrankB 0]

Good read, good move. It was the only way to pick up the pot and that is the whole point of the game. TO PICK UP THE POT.Brilliant! 8)

[JFarrell20 1]

You won the pot didn't you? So in one sense, yeah, good play. However...after 4th street one guy bet out 100 right? Then other dude raises to 400? So you re-raised w/ just a set and a scarce nut-flush draw? Kinda weird. What if the original bettor pushed all in on you? Then you would have had to fold. I think you should have called the 400 at most, and hoped the original bettor didn't re-raise. If you called the 400, and original dude re-raises it, I'd just lay it down.you did have a lot of outs though, another K would have been the nuts. a pair of the board would have given you nut full house. Any club would have made you the nut-flush... hard to say. Set of Kings is not a strong hand in 3-way omaha usually. Honestly I think the mistake was on your friend bumping it up to 400 in his position. Kinda strange.

[looshle 6]

This is actually a common play the pros use. I think I actually read about Daniel mentioning this play in at least on or two of his articles. I believe one time he mentions a hand against Sam Farha who had the ace of a certain suit and that Omaha players sometimes try to push people out knowing they can't have the nut flush. In your case, he was correct to bet that much, protecting his hand. He took away the odds you needed to hit your boat, and just as you knew he had to have been betting with the flush, anyone in his position would see you raise so much and say you had to be raising with the nut flush. Good play by both of you, Omaha is a complicated game.

[jomatty 0]

im shocked that people think he should softplay his buddy. if he would make that play against someone else but not his buddy simplay because their friends they should not play in the same game together. he is obligated to play his hand hard against all his opponents although most people dont always.Also, bluffing with the naked ace is a very good very standard play. i wouldnt have shown it but keep in mind that when you bet a flush big next time id shw him the nuts as hell be much more likely to call.nice play, i cant believe anyone would think otherwise. matty

[CodyHartman 0]

you did have a lot of outs though, another K would have been the nuts.  a pair of the board would have given you nut full house.  Any club would have made you the nut-flush...  hard to say.

I think I am reading this right. Youare saying if another spade comes he HAS the NUT Flush. NOT true. Omaha is 2 from your hand and 3 from the board. NO other way. If someone had a flush or a straight the only way he could win is by pairing the board or hitting the case K. Good play though man GUTSY.