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Top pair low kicker?


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This has been something I've never really known how to play well. What do you guys like to do when you flop the top pair but have a terrible kicker? Say in late position you limp in with A-3 suited or you're dealt K5 in the big blind. When the Ace or the King hits how should you go about playing the hand?I think that the best possible thing to do is check and try to see what other people have by their actions to determine whether or not you have the best hand. For example maybe it'll be checked around and the person with the middle pair will bet because he now thinks he has the best hand etc.

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There is no single correct play here lol. You are talking of two seperate things, limping in late position with A-3 and being in front position with K-5, I play these hands differently depending on whats happeningTournament or Cash-Game?Short Table? (4-7 players) or A full table? (8-10)Loose game or Tight Game?What else hit the flop? rainbow? Straight/flush draw? There's so many things you have to think about with this type of hand. If the situation is right, I'm betting 2x BB to 5x BB depending on the game, who's behind me etc... its all based on your notes and experience really.

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I'm going to fold more times than not.I think you play it correct. In early position, check to see what everyone else does, and if it's checked to you in late position put in a bet. More times than not, according to the texture of the board and the way my opponents bet, I fold. It's a trouble hand that should be easy to get away from.

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There was already another post about this topic somewhere in the forum, but I couldn't find it *shrug*Anyway I usually fold these unless I think I have the best hand [obviously] More often than not though, these are folding hands.

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one of these hands just came up the other night... K 4 in the BB. cash game about 8 handed i think. im respected as a solid player. like 4 limpers in the pot....flop K 10 xi bet 3x bb UTG. i know it was an overstated bet, but i figured that given the respect as a solid player i could take the pot right there, and that KJ or KQ would easily come over the top.i get cold called by one player. i now immediately feel that he is putting on a trap with top 2 or a set... but im not completely sold on the idea. i decide to study him a bit and he seems to be thinking hard... almost speculating as to what my bet meant. this convinces me to fire (3x again) on another total blank on the turn. he reluctantly calls.river was J, and he doesnt really do too much. i decide that whatever he was drawing to that he missed, and fired about 4x. he reluctantly called, i showed my K and he mucked.... i was really confused at first. i thought i was beat for sure, but i didnt want to check and give him a chance to bluff me out of my 7 bets. i really think i misplayed this hand from a "by the book" standpoint, but i really sensed weakness in him and almost invited a call with my weak betting. if an A or a 9 fell, i would have slowed down, same as if 10's paired the board. but i was almost positive he was drawing or being a hero with mid pair.

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This has been something I've never really known how to play well.  What do you guys like to do when you flop the top pair but have a terrible kicker?  Say in late position you limp in with A-3 suited or you're dealt K5 in the big blind.  When the Ace or the King hits how should you go about playing the hand?I think that the best possible thing to do is check and try to see what other people have by their actions to determine whether or not you have the best hand.  For example maybe it'll be checked around and the person with the middle pair will bet because he now thinks he has the best hand etc.
Do not check the flop, no matter what position. BET IT. Find out where you are. In early position, I'd bet about 1/2 the pot. If I'm called, or re-raised then I can more easily assess whether I'm still good or not. Do not check it to see what others do, that won't tell you anything. These players behind you could probably just be betting at it b/c they think you are weak, and they are just trying to take it down right there. BET THE FLOP if you do not know where you stand! This will tell you SO MUCH.
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What do you guys like to do when you flop the top pair but have a terrible kicker? Say in late position you limp in with A-3 suited or you're dealt K5 in the big blind. When the Ace or the King hits how should you go about playing the hand?  
I think we would all agree that these are hands that should typically be folded pre-flop against a raise. But sometimes you are almost pushed into seeing the flop with them. And then you risk getting yourself trapped once you hit top pair.My general rule, before ever seeing the flop, is that unless I hit two pair, trips or a strong draw, I won't gamble with these hands. I will assume that my top pair is already out-kicked and won't allow myself to get trapped with it. I will typically check it down and call only small bets if no one else shows confidence. Any bet I make is done as a bluff to represent a stronger hand.There is a reason why we usually fold these hands before the flop. It is because even if we hit our top pair, it probably is not good enough. Keep this in mind after the flop and don't allow yourself to go broke in these situations.--cnm
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"No limit hold 'em is a game of top pair, top kicker." T.J. CloutierPlaying hands like this only seems to get me in jams where I don't know what to do. If the other player(s) show any agression, I'll almost always lay it down. It's very hard to call any decent bet with that hand, so it's best (IMHO) to just stay away from it.

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When faced with A-small...and an ACE flops..I play it the same way I would play it if I had KK in the situation. Basically, THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE! I don't know how you would play KK when an Ace flops..but that would be the way to go.

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I seldomly play K-2 or Q-3... etc. Unless I'm in position. But early position... I'll fold these. Because I know if i hit Kings on the flop, i could potentially lose a lot of money and I don't even want to take that risk! It's not that I don't trust my post-flop play, it's just common sense. Hitting top pair w/ low kicker can be costly!!!Lets say you are BB though with K-2 and nobody raises it. You check. Two others in the hand. Flop comes K 7 4 rainbow. I'd come out with probably about a 40% pot bet. This should tell you where you stand. If the other two didn't hit kings, they may fold right there. If they have an ace, they may try to stay in to hit it. If it gets called, then raised... I'd probably lay it down. They've at least got K's with better kicker. Let it go. Lets say one player calls. Turn is an ace. You think he may have just hit aces... well, don't let him know that that scared you. I'd bet similarly to my first bet. (not necessarily 40% of the pot, but just match the actual amount that it was). Now if he raises, you could likely be beat, or he's bluffing the ace b/c he knows you bet on the flop (most likely w/o an ace). Lets say he just calls. River is a blank. What do you do? I'd probably bet the same as I have been OR probably moreso, I'd check it to him. I'd look for a value-bet by him, and I'd just call it. I think you can get away w/ checking here b/c he should sense that you have something, and will not bet too much (not bluff either), he should throw a small-to-medium sized value bet out there and it's up to you to call it. probably 50/50 whether or not you should call. Personally, I'd probably lay this down. Anyway, I hope that helps. Probably not though!

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If you hit top pair three haned and they are Kings you have to remember that if you get to see the flop for free there is a high chance that someone does not have you out kicked. When you are just three handed and someone has a hand like K 9 or K8 they would most likely want to raise. This is a solid hand three handed. I would feel quite confident if there was no raises before the flop and i hit top pair with Kings. It is a completely different situation if you hit top pair with nines or something else a little smaller. I would come out firing strong with top pair and if i was beat i think the betting would make it very clear to me and i would get out. No im not one of these players that over values top pair and would keep raising with it, but 3 handed you have to be confident. If i got to see a free flop on an 9 person table the story is completely different.

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Nobody has talked about reading your opponents or your table image. :D If you have a tight image, people will see your bet only if they have a bigger kicker. Your image might cause them to call when they should raise, but at least you will know in one smooth motion whether or not your bet is good. And hey, you can play it for a small bet (in limit, at least) and get away if the turn is not your miracle second pair, or if the board shows straight or flush (it looks like you might be checking because your opponent could have hit it). Then you can abandon ship and nobody will think any less of you and your kickers. In fact, he may just have that straight or flush. That's where your reads come into play. Watch him on the turn, not the card. If he hits his card, he might glance at his chips or shuffle in his chair. You will probably get the sensation that the turn hit him like a ton of bricks. Go from there...A corollary to this is if you have a tight image, someone might fold a hand with a kicker that was good, assuming he knows you play only top pair top kicker. But boy, when you finally have to show that K-2, you realize what it does to your image! Busted! Then you best not play any crap kickers for a while. :) If you have a loose image, someone might be calling you down with second pair and a good kicker, or even something like QQ or JJ (which you probably wouldn't be in the pot for since they would have raised pre-flop, but people generally mix it up a bit). If you feel you're getting called down, then by all means keep betting. You'll show your weak king and take the pot, and they'll think "Dangit, I knew he had top pair, but bla bla bla yadda yadda I'm never doing that again darn darn dang". This makes your image looser, of course, so once again you'd better tighten up after showing it down. As well, this has to do with your reads. If this guy occasionally shows down a strong second pair, you figure he might just be doing it here as well. :) I don't think simply checking is ever the right play here on most occasions. The occasion that it would be the right play will be discussed below. If you check, be setting yourself up to check-raise a single bet. If it's two bet after you check, well surely you're no good now so you're done.The check-raise does the following, though. It suggests more strength then you have. If someone else is toddling around with a weak king, or even a semi-decent king, they will be put to the test. Maybe you hit two pair (with your blind hand). Maybe you have the K-A or so (which nobody will ever put you on unless you raise pre-flop or are known to take a cheap flop with such a hand to mix it up, so don't rely on this too much). Maybe you're semi-bluffing and they'll call the flop, and if that scare card comes up you can bet it (assuming you've shown down the semi-bluff and people realize you did it). Of course, all these plays assumes you're playing against a tight, reasonable opponent. If you're playing against someone who's gonna call you with top pair even if his kicker is questionable as well (but still has you beat), then don't do it.But checking? Do it if your opponents will only come out firing with top pair, good kicker, i.e. do it if your opponent is a rock (or mouse, if you're Hellmuth-esque). Then you will even save your small bet, which you're probably doing plenty of against this sort of player anyway.:) Finally, one last note about not checking. If you check, you're setting yourself up to be bluffed. If somebody successfully bluffs you off the pot, all your check did was help him successfully bluff you. You don't want to be bluffed, so why assist your opponent in making that play? Bet it and put the other guys to the test. If he plays back at you, you have much more information than if you had simply checked, most notably the assurance that he's not near as likely to be bluffing an early position bet (assuming you're in the BB or wherever you might be as you say).I love talking about poker.Er... one last thought before I finally post this essay. Umm... smiley... :wink: I also like the check-raise here because if someone has something worse than you, they might bet it thinking it's good. This play, obviously, only makes sense against a late position aggressive player who would otherwise fold if not leading in the hand (either leading by aggressive betting or leading with great cards).

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Great post Ebonwoulfe it pretty much covered everything that needed to be said but I would like to mention one thing and I wanted to open it to comments either for or against. Let's say you do hit your top pair from the blind being A-7. Would it be correct to check and call a bet considering that if you had hit another A (2 outs) or a 7 (3 outs) with the correct payout ratio if you make your hand on the turn? For example, 4 ppl in the pot, you check from early position, someone bets, midplayer folds and cutoff calls, you are getting 6 bets for your 1 bet to call and the odds of hitting your card are 20% which should receive a payout ratio of 4 to 1?

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