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Another $3.30 Stars 180 Man Re-buy Hand. Villain Bet Sizing Too Small?


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Was just moved to this table, and this was first hand so no reads. This was after the rebuy/add on period. I know the open was bad because of being in MP and having several players ahead, but big villains bet sizing seemed off as the hand went on. Also, as a side note, I see what you guys are talking about bad variance in these. I get it in good, then guys will catch on turn or river, or catch runner-runner to win. Almost makes you want to smash the keyboard over your own head, especially after you have invested 2 hours. Anyway, see what you guys think about this one:feral_cow_icon.gifConverted by a herd of feral cowsPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t200/t400 ante t50 - 8 playersUTG+1: t15,952 MP: t7,334 (Hero)HJ: t6,953 CO: t13,838 Button: t2,595 SB: t14,785 BB: t11,685 UTG: t26,903 Preflop: (t1,000) Hero is MP with :ts:5c (8 players)2 folds, Hero raises to t1000, HJ calls t1000, 2 folds, SB calls t800, BB foldsFlop: (t3,800) :jh:club::qh (3 players)SB checks, Hero checks, HJ checksTurn: (t3,800) :3h (3 players)SB bets t800, Hero calls t800, HJ foldsRiver: (t5,400) :4h (2 players)SB bets t1200, Hero ???????

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I wouldn't mind the raise preflop as a pure blind steal too much had it folded to you in the cutoff or on the button, but from your posistion, just fold as (no offense) your postflop play probably isn't good enough to make it profitable. Despite the fact that my postflop game has improved in the last 2 months, I still try to stick to raising hands (the non premium ones) that are easy to play post.As for the hand in question, I assume you're calling the turn because you think you have the best hand. If that's the case, then I think you have to call the river since the 4c is essentially a blank. I think you're beat more often than you're ahead, because his busted flush draws still have the potential to be 9x,Qx type hands. 810,10J, and maybe even 68 can make up a decent part of his range, but I think if those hands are bluffing the river, they would be doing so with a larger bet size so not to give you odds to call.just my thoughts

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Was just moved to this table, and this was first hand so no reads. This was after the rebuy/add on period. I know the open was bad because of being in MP and having several players ahead, but big villains bet sizing seemed off as the hand went on. Also, as a side note, I see what you guys are talking about bad variance in these. I get it in good, then guys will catch on turn or river, or catch runner-runner to win. Almost makes you want to smash the keyboard over your own head, especially after you have invested 2 hours. Anyway, see what you guys think about this one:feral_cow_icon.gifConverted by a herd of feral cowsPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t200/t400 ante t50 - 8 playersUTG+1: t15,952 MP: t7,334 (Hero)HJ: t6,953 CO: t13,838 Button: t2,595 SB: t14,785 BB: t11,685 UTG: t26,903 Preflop: (t1,000) Hero is MP with :4h:3h (8 players)2 folds, Hero raises to t1000, HJ calls t1000, 2 folds, SB calls t800, BB foldsFlop: (t3,800) :D:ts:jh (3 players)SB checks, Hero checks, HJ checksTurn: (t3,800) :qh (3 players)SB bets t800, Hero calls t800, HJ foldsRiver: (t5,400) :5c (2 players)SB bets t1200, Hero ???????
:club: kinda horrible...i think folding the flop would have been the best play
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I wouldn't mind the raise preflop as a pure blind steal too much had it folded to you in the cutoff or on the button, but from your posistion, just fold as (no offense) your postflop play probably isn't good enough to make it profitable. Despite the fact that my postflop game has improved in the last 2 months, I still try to stick to raising hands (the non premium ones) that are easy to play post.As for the hand in question, I assume you're calling the turn because you think you have the best hand. If that's the case, then I think you have to call the river since the 4c is essentially a blank. I think you're beat more often than you're ahead, because his busted flush draws still have the potential to be 9x,Qx type hands. 810,10J, and maybe even 68 can make up a decent part of his range, but I think if those hands are bluffing the river, they would be doing so with a larger bet size so not to give you odds to call.just my thoughts
Tell it to me like it is!! Good points.
:club: kinda horrible...i think folding the flop would have been the best play
I know the preflop was bad. I know I should have let it go. A9 suited or better I guess is the lowest range here, and that may be too low.I was more concerned with the small bet sizes. Seems to me his small bets looked like he was hoping to catch something. I was guessing AJ, or K10, some kinda high cards that connected with the Q, but still needed something else. Since I opened large, then shut down, the turn bet just looked like a thin drawing bet to me. Small to if I reraised or HJ (maybe he thought I or HJ had AQ, 77 or 99???) he could let it go, but to his stack size compared to mine and HJ, his bets just looked TOO small. I did not want to reraise because I am trying to get away from reraising and shoving crap hands and being spewey (got a LONG way to go). When HJ folded and the river basically bricked, I think it was another too small bet size. Looked like it was "Please just go away because if you have the balls to re-raise I am gone". I guess I made a hero or idiot call??? Am I reading the post flop with any kind of sense or just idioticy???
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fold >>> jam >>>>>>> raise preAs played, I liked checking the flop but I definitely fold turn, we've already put in almost 1/7 of our stack by raising here instead of shoving or folding, no need to put in another 10% with bottom pair when there aren't really many river cards we like.

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fold pre. no antes, no weak opens. thats my new rule. unless i have mega reads. but it kinda works nicely in $1-4 donkaments. your going to get paied off. dont take thin risks with out the reward of antes/ and or adding a ton % wish to your stack pre by taking down the pot.

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O.k. Another results oriented hand. My read on villain was good becasue he had KJ, and my ducks were good. Just wondering if my reading/thinking style was on the right track once I put myself in the bad spot. Just lucky I guess....
you ran into a tiny part of his range, calling the turn is terrible imo. remember to just think value in these things. even if you are right a % the time, this risks a ton. dont take huge risks. play solid. it will crush these things
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you ran into a tiny part of his range, calling the turn is terrible imo. remember to just think value in these things. even if you are right a % the time, this risks a ton. dont take huge risks. play solid. it will crush these things
Gotcha. I have played a few more and have noticed that you have to play really tight. Too tight for my style, but I can adjust. I have been practicing tight play on DONs, and getting pretty solid there (for now). I will try to use the same tight play on some 180's this weekend and see how it goes. Even though I am not posting profits, I am holding my own bankroll wise and learning new stuff daily. That's a win-win to me. Thanks!!
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Gotcha. I have played a few more and have noticed that you have to play really tight. Too tight for my style, but I can adjust. I have been practicing tight play on DONs, and getting pretty solid there (for now). I will try to use the same tight play on some 180's this weekend and see how it goes. Even though I am not posting profits, I am holding my own bankroll wise and learning new stuff daily. That's a win-win to me. Thanks!!
you have to play tight early in those things. but the second you have 10 BB. open shove ATC. donks hate seeing Allins pre. hopefully you will be in blinds and antes at that point. and remember to be careful around the 20-14 BB mark. you need to be extremely tight then and look to be getting it in. dont lose half your stack on a bluff at that point
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you have to play tight early in those things. but the second you have 10 BB. open shove ATC. donks hate seeing Allins pre. hopefully you will be in blinds and antes at that point. and remember to be careful around the 20-14 BB mark. you need to be extremely tight then and look to be getting it in. dont lose half your stack on a bluff at that point
I was going to start another thread, but since you brought it up I will ask. When you get to the 10-12 BB limit, are you shoving ATC from any position, or in late position as long as no one else has raised PF?? Same thing for stealing. Are you stealing with ATC from late position (CO and /or Button) when you have a comfortable stack and blinds and antes are in play? If the table is tight, do you want to lay up to 2:1 odds stealing late position with ATC??? I know you would not want to make a habit of this on every orbit, but from time to time??? Just a thought.
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OK, so only when you are CO or Button with no action before you, or is it ok to open shove ATC with 1 limp, even if he has you covered, at say 5-1 or more? Or wait until you have a better selection of cards?
It's really table dependent. I mean, if it's folded to you in the CO, then you can obviously shove a little lighter. However, if one of the 3 remaining players has either a huge or small stack, you may have to tighten your range just a bit.I've messed around a lot with different ranges to see which ones do well against most typical calling ranges, and have come up with this99+,ATs+,K7s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,AJo+,K9o+,QTo+In case it's not obvious, you should probably be folding the lower end of that range if you're in early posistion.Now there are times when I'm shoving a lot tighter/looser depending on who's left to act. I very rarely, if ever, will open shove light when someone limps, since some people for whatever reason like to limp 100% of their range. Last, but not least, once I get down to around 5 or less BBs, I usually will shove ATC when first to act.
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I think saying atc is kinda a mistake there because although you'll be shoving a lot from LP with 10bbs, you're still folding hands like 72o a lot. That said Jon's range is pretty tight there if you're jamming from LP.

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I think saying atc is kinda a mistake there because although you'll be shoving a lot from LP with 10bbs, you're still folding hands like 72o a lot. That said Jon's range is pretty tight there if you're jamming from LP.
Very true, which is why deciding when to shove lighter is so dependent on what range the other players are calling with.That particular range does pretty well against most common calling ranges, at least in my experience so far.I actually have a question for you, my friend. A situation that comes up every once in a while.Basically, you lose a big all in pot against someone with a similar stack size, and you're left with around 2-4BBs. You're UTG the next hand, and get dealt a crappy hand like 83,62, etc. Are you just shoving there, or waiting for the BB the next hand, and getting it in there with hopefully a somewhat better hand? Either way, you really have no FE. Didn't really know if it matters enough in that spot to go either way.
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Very true, which is why deciding when to shove lighter is so dependent on what range the other players are calling with.That particular range does pretty well against most common calling ranges, at least in my experience so far.I actually have a question for you, my friend. A situation that comes up every once in a while.Basically, you lose a big all in pot against someone with a similar stack size, and you're left with around 2-4BBs. You're UTG the next hand, and get dealt a crappy hand like 83,62, etc. Are you just shoving there, or waiting for the BB the next hand, and getting it in there with hopefully a somewhat better hand? Either way, you really have no FE. Didn't really know if it matters enough in that spot to go either way.
One thing you may not have considered however is the fold equity of our shove. There are already like 2.5bbs in the pot (with antes) when we jam and if we get folds we add like 25% to our stack, which is huge obviously.When we're down to 2-4bbs UTG or w/e in the situation you describe, I generally wait for the BB and hope you bink
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