16 replies to this topic

[sjm20]

Villain is running at 15/2/6 and previously shoved 40k into a 5k pot with A6ss on a 3s4s567s board. That's about the only read I have is that he kind of plays off of stupid players more than he value hunts.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10+$1 Tournament, 400/800 Blinds 75 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton (t39677)SB (t85236)BB (t17231)UTG (t8481)UTG+1 (t31170)MP1 (t9944)Hero (MP2) (t50268)MP3 (t44651)CO (t7018)Hero's M: 26.81Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A3 folds, Hero raises to t2400, 3 folds, SB calls t2000, 1 foldFlop: (t6275) A, 9, 5 (2 players)SB checks, Hero bets t3200, SB raises to t7200, Hero calls t4000Turn: (t20675) A (2 players)SB checks, Hero checksRiver: (t20675) 2 (2 players)SB bets t10400, Hero calls t10400Total pot: t41475His raise on the flop slows me down, as I was afraid he defended his blind with 95 soooted or A9o, maybe A5s. I don't necessarily think a flush draw is out of his range either. Is a fold on the flop against a relatively unknown ever correct?Am I wrong for not betting the turn. My initial goal was to keep the pot small since I had no idea where I was. I also think this further disguises my hand if I improve on river.The river is why I checked the turn behind. I wanted to be able to call a half or 3/4 pot bet without breaking me if I was wrong. I wasn't sure if my check behind on turn confused him and he turned his hand into a bluff here, or if he was value-betting me. Does anybody fold here? Anybody ship?One of the biggest leaks in my game is my unwillingness to hunt more value out of spots like these on the flop and turn. I'm tough to bluff, but I think my soft line lets a lot of hands catch up to me. Did I disguise my hand too much here?Any and all opinions are encouraged, I would love to hear how bad my line was

[sennin]

I think I play it the same way with the exception of betting closer to 4k on the flop.

[HighwayStar]

I play it just about the same. I don't think this is a good spot to try and extract thinnish value on the turn. I think you win at showdown here about half the time.

[outsider13]

Yeah I play that pretty much the same. Shove on the river is only getting called by the hands that beat you, and as Highway said, you win this at showdown often.

[Dratj]

I'd say villian either has a flush or weak ace. you have to call the river. I woudn't shove because you dont' want a call.

[MovingIn]

sennin, on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008, 7:52 PM, said:

I think I play it the same way with the exception of betting closer to 4k on the flop.

^^^ The only thing we're worried about at showdown is a flopped set/two pair that turned a boat on the turn, or a flush draw that got there on the turn. But I can see villain raising the flop with less to show strength, thinking we're just c-betting. He slows down on the turn, so do we, and he takes a stab at the river in case we're defending with a weak ace or something.

[Gallo]

So no one is in favor of r/r flop? Do you really think we are behind here?As played, I would not shove on river, this is why I woulda probably r/r on flop. I call the river as you will win most of the time.

[HighwayStar]

Gallo, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 5:50 PM, said:

So no one is in favor of r/r flop? Do you really think we are behind here?As played, I would not shove on river, this is why I woulda probably r/r on flop. I call the river as you will win most of the time.

Are you planning to 4 bet/fold or 4 bet/call?

[Dratj]

Gallo, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 8:50 AM, said:

So no one is in favor of r/r flop? Do you really think we are behind here?As played, I would not shove on river, this is why I woulda probably r/r on flop. I call the river as you will win most of the time.

I'd rather just call the min raise to control the size of the pot. See what happens on the turn. If you get 4 bet you'd have to fold but for about the same amount of money, you can see at least one more street to see what villian does. In this case, op saw 2 streets.

HighwayStar, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 9:01 AM, said:

Are you planning to 4 bet/fold or 4 bet/call?

it would have to be 4 bet fold.

[Fade2241]

Dratj, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 11:41 AM, said:

I'd rather just call the min raise to control the size of the pot. See what happens on the turn. If you get 4 bet you'd have to fold but for about the same amount of money, you can see at least one more street to see what villian does. In this case, op saw 2 streets.

I take this line all the time after flopping a FD OOP. Calling the reraise gives him the lead in the hand but there's no real amount that we can reraise that doesn't commit us to the pot. Given the action I prolly call down as well but I think a shove otf is best if I had balls. You're looking at a FD/AQ-A10 more times than a hand that has us crushed, imo.

[TrueAce13]

Gallo, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 9:50 AM, said:

So no one is in favor of r/r flop? Do you really think we are behind here?As played, I would not shove on river, this is why I woulda probably r/r on flop. I call the river as you will win most of the time.

I was thinking this as well. Are we really behind here? I think we r/r and hope for a ship.

[sennin]

TrueAce13, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 6:18 PM, said:

I was thinking this as well. Are we really behind here? I think we r/r and hope for a ship.

you dont wanna be hoping you're up against AQ for like a 150BB pot, besides AQ is rarely going to ship if you stick in that extra raise, the only thing that will is 2pair/set

[sjm20]

If my stack is small, yea I'll pray he has AQ, but my m is 26 and his is enormous. I don't like a push and pray at this level...

[Gallo]

sennin, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 9:28 PM, said:

you dont wanna be hoping you're up against AQ for like a 150BB pot, besides AQ is rarely going to ship if you stick in that extra raise, the only thing that will is 2pair/set

I think you give these levels too much credit. At the $10 they'll ship A-rag, maybe not alot but I don't think you can discount AQ from not shipping on a r/r.Honestly, I don't mind r/r'ing on this flop. I think for the most part we're ahead. It might be a bit aggro, but I'd go for it.

[TrueAce13]

Gallo, on Thursday, October 16th, 2008, 9:28 AM, said:

I think you give these levels too much credit. At the $10 they'll ship A-rag, maybe not alot but I don't think you can discount AQ from not shipping on a r/r.Honestly, I don't mind r/r'ing on this flop. I think for the most part we're ahead. It might be a bit aggro, but I'd go for it.

This was where my thought process came into play

[Dratj]

Fade2241, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 1:01 PM, said:

I take this line all the time after flopping a FD OOP. Calling the reraise gives him the lead in the hand but there's no real amount that we can reraise that doesn't commit us to the pot. Given the action I prolly call down as well but I think a shove otf is best if I had balls. You're looking at a FD/AQ-A10 more times than a hand that has us crushed, imo.

I don't think those hands would call. Well, def. not a naked flush draw. AQ, AJ maybe. anything else that calls a shove probably is way ahead.

[outsider13]

TrueAce13, on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008, 7:18 PM, said:

I was thinking this as well. Are we really behind here? I think we r/r and hope for a ship.

You really want to call a ship here? Yes, you are often ahead here, but you are behind a bunch of hands that could be in villains range here. As played, I would comfortably say that it's possible villain could have TJdd, QTdd, QJdd, A9, A5, 99, 55, and maybe even A2. I think I'd be happy to take the 50bb pot here.Quick edit, misread what you were quoting. You were referencing the r/r flop, not river.