17 replies to this topic

[exec771]

I am a CL at 25/45 final table on stars with 17k next biggest stack is 8k.7 places pay and we are 9 handed so close to bubble.....*** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to mbajpai [Ts 7h]Beelzebub: folds 15lbsNUTS: folds mbajpai: raises 1090 to 1690 KELLYBAR: calls 1690 zTruthOrDare: folds boernirohr: folds Piquette: folds pokermon138: folds ignis 22: folds *** FLOP *** [3c 5c 8c] mbajpai: bets 15480 and is all-in KELLYBAR: calls 4140 and is all-in *** TURN *** [3c 5c 8c] [3h] *** RIVER *** [3c 5c 8c 3h] [Ks] *** SHOW DOWN *** mbajpai: shows [Ts 7h] (a pair of Threes) KELLYBAR: shows [As Kh] (two pair, Kings and Threes) KELLYBAR collected 13010 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 13010 | Rake 0 Board [3c 5c 8c 3h Ks]If I have any club hes 50-50. Am I missing something here or is it a horrible call??

[Tosh]

bad call*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to tosh_young [Kc Ts]tintin28: calls 100Louis1415: folds awesomeolly: folds jeremyrush: folds schnealy: calls 50tosh_young: checks *** FLOP *** [Ac Td Ks]schnealy: checks tosh_young: checks tintin28: bets 200schnealy: folds tosh_young: raises 590 to 790 and is all-intintin28: calls 590*** TURN *** [Ac Td Ks] [6d]*** RIVER *** [Ac Td Ks 6d] [Js]*** SHOW DOWN ***tosh_young: shows [Kc Ts] (two pair, Kings and Tens)tintin28: shows [Jd Jh] (three of a kind, Jacks)tintin28 collected 1880 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 1880 | Rake 0 Board [Ac Td Ks 6d Js]

[RiscaRod]

Unless he had an awesome read, yes.Would love to see players like that at the bubble in every tourny.

[MoChipsPlese]

The question should be was it the right call or the wrong call. It was the right call only because he won the hand. It was the wrong call because like you said he is crushed by any number of hands. Did he make a good read? Only he knows that, and you would have to ask him if he put you on a stone cold bluff which is what it was. In that case it would be a good call not only cause he won the hand but also because his read was perfect. If he didn't put you on a stone cold bluff then it was a bad call with good results....this reminds me of another time when I saw a man try to bluff the Dread Pirate Roberts....

[rog]

What's his chip position? If I read the HH right, blinds are 300/600...he has an M of less than 5 if he folds, and he's getting 2:1 to call. What's your image? Does he think his nut no pair is likely good against your "bully" shoving range? If I'm 8th or 9th against an uber-aggressive chip leader, I might make that call.

[PMJackson21]

Heh, if anything is really bad, it's his pre-flop flat call with AK. Either he was trying not to bubble (which would lead one to believe he would fold on that flop), or he was 'trapping' w/ace high. Well played either way.

[Donkey Destroyer]

Before you go off on the other guys play you gotta ask yourself wtf you were doing in on the hand from early position so close to the bubble with garbage, much less putting him all in on a dangerous flop that you have no part of. Even if he has a a lone ace club in his hand he has already commited a 1/5 of his stack so a call isn't out of the question anyway. If you've been bullying the table (and based on the way you played this hand it sounds like you had) then you can't blame anyone for finally calling you out with a hand that has showdown value.Sounds to me like you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and screwed yourself out of a easy walk to 3rd place or better, and now are just pissing and moaning about it.Next time pick better spots to make moves. This was a flop you easily could have at least checked and see what happened. He checks behind you and the turn comes a blank then bet and try and take it down. You made more mistakes than he did IMO. First was not letting the hand go to begin with preflop, then it was putting him all in on a flop that should have scared you as much as it did him.

[freak2304]

PMJackson21, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 9:11 AM, said:

Heh, if anything is really bad, it's his pre-flop flat call with AK. Either he was trying not to bubble (which would lead one to believe he would fold on that flop), or he was 'trapping' w/ace high. Well played either way.

I agree with this. I think it was more of a "bad play" to not re-raise all-in pre-flop with his AK...especially if he was planning on playing it to the end anyways (which is obvious by the all-in call on the flop with no pair, no draw). That being said, it seems like this is how alot of people lose chip leads late it tournies. Trying to bully people out of pots with absolute garbage.

[XXEddie]

Donkey Destroyer, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 9:31 AM, said:

Before you go off on the other guys play you gotta ask yourself wtf you were doing in on the hand from early position so close to the bubble with garbage, \

Stop talking.....nowThats what your suppose to do with the Chip lead when you are on the bubble. Take advantage of how tight everyone will be playing. They dont wanna get into a confrontation with the CL this close to the bubble without a premium hand.OP is doing what he should be, His flop push was indeed questionable, but villians call was pretty bad

[Donkey Destroyer]

XXEddie, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 11:40 AM, said:

Stop talking.....nowThats what your suppose to do with the Chip lead when you are on the bubble. Take advantage of how tight everyone will be playing. They dont wanna get into a confrontation with the CL this close to the bubble without a premium hand.

BS. Just because pushing is a good idea doesn't mean it is always a good idea to push. Have a clue and pick your spots instead of just randomly tossing chips around. Push for a reason. Be it you have position and/or they have shown you weakness. Push cause you have a marginal drawing hand or even a single ace. But as soon as you start tossing chips around out of poistion with complete garbage IMO anything that happens is your own damn fault.The only way to justify that is the table had puckered up so tight that it was going to take aces against kings or top two against trips before someone went out. Based on this guys play with the AK it doesn't sounds like that was the case. Then add in the fact that he went all in on a scary looking flop and it sums it all up for me. He played a crappy hand from crappy poistion on a crappy flop and it sounds about right it went to crap for him in the end.Maybe this guy had him dead on and knew that with the way he'd been playing his ace high very well could be the best hand. I say good call.

[Money022]

MoChipsPlese, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 11:25 AM, said:

...this reminds me of another time when I saw a man try to bluff the Dread Pirate Roberts....

Bravo!

[timwakefield]

You had ten high, he had Ace high, it was a good call.That's all i got.

[XXEddie]

Donkey Destroyer, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 9:31 AM, said:

Before you go off on the other guys play you gotta ask yourself wtf you were doing in on the hand from early position so close to the bubble with garbage, much less putting him all in on a dangerous flop that you have no part of. Even if he has a a lone ace club in his hand he has already commited a 1/5 of his stack so a call isn't out of the question anyway. If you've been bullying the table (and based on the way you played this hand it sounds like you had) then you can't blame anyone for finally calling you out with a hand that has showdown value.Sounds to me like you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and screwed yourself out of a easy walk to 3rd place or better, and now are just pissing and moaning about it.Next time pick better spots to make moves. This was a flop you easily could have at least checked and see what happened. He checks behind you and the turn comes a blank then bet and try and take it down. You made more mistakes than he did IMO. First was not letting the hand go to begin with preflop, then it was putting him all in on a flop that should have scared you as much as it did him.

wow....your like half the donks in the fish thread. Putting in 20% of your stack DOES NOT men you are committed. Please, just stop talking before you make yourself look like more of an idiot.I guarantee if villian folds, youd would be saying it was a great push.

[exec771]

Donkey Destroyer, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 9:31 AM, said:

Before you go off on the other guys play you gotta ask yourself wtf you were doing in on the hand from early position so close to the bubble with garbage, much less putting him all in on a dangerous flop that you have no part of. Even if he has a a lone ace club in his hand he has already commited a 1/5 of his stack so a call isn't out of the question anyway. If you've been bullying the table (and based on the way you played this hand it sounds like you had) then you can't blame anyone for finally calling you out with a hand that has showdown value.Sounds to me like you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and screwed yourself out of a easy walk to 3rd place or better, and now are just pissing and moaning about it.Next time pick better spots to make moves. This was a flop you easily could have at least checked and see what happened. He checks behind you and the turn comes a blank then bet and try and take it down. You made more mistakes than he did IMO. First was not letting the hand go to begin with preflop, then it was putting him all in on a flop that should have scared you as much as it did him.

So according to u being a CL on the bubble I shd tighten up and hope to make it into the money... Ty for tht advice..As far as push goes I put him on high cards as with a big pp I ws sure hed repush, there were two shortstacks with M < 1 who wer the next two blinds so I thought he couldnt call me with a high card, also I do the same thing with a lone club and a 9 even trying to protect a pair, so a pure bluff is at the bottom of my range. I just though even if my range was any two he wasnt ahead...

[Donkey Destroyer]

XXEddie, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 5:46 PM, said:

wow....your like half the donks in the fish thread. Putting in 20% of your stack DOES NOT men you are committed. Please, just stop talking before you make yourself look like more of an idiot.

NO ya freakin meathead I never said he was absolutely committed but he had committed enough that a call based on what he'd put in so far wasn't out of the questions. A call not being out of the qand being completely pot committed are not the same hence you are stupid. Why don't you either stop trying to score points by taking shots at me and pay the **** attention to whats being said or just plain plain stfu.You are defending someone who pissed away the chip lead by playing a stupid hand from stupid position for no other reason to than to add a paltry amount to his enormous stack. Yes you push but you do it when there is a reason to do so, not just cause you have a big stack and a big stack means you push every single goddam hand regardless of cards and poistion. Thats the assinine look at me I read a poker book once and am a total fish way of donking off a huge chip lead to someone who finally stands up to you. And thats excactly what happened here. This idiot got exactly what was coming to him and I don't feel sorry for him in the least.Good call on the other guys part.

[ChrisRichey]

I agree with PMJ, you got trapped.

[Donkey Destroyer]

exec771, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 5:50 PM, said:

So according to u being a CL on the bubble I shd tighten up and hope to make it into the money... Ty for tht advice..

No I am not saying tighten up I am saying play like a real player. Push for for a reason not simply cause you have a big stack and a book you read once said you should push with a big stack. Have a reason other than you have a lot of chips to play a hand from early position with garbage. The raise wasn't big enough to represent a monster anyway. There was no scare factor going on other than your big stack.Regardless of the preflop action your all in push on the flop was just absolutely crazy. I can see no justification for it at all other than I have bluffed this so far and the only way out is to keep bluffing even tho I might be behind or even drawing dead already. As soon as you saw the board you should have been ready to check at least once to see where you stood in the hand and get some inofrmation. You knew aboslutely nothing about what he might have other than he was willing to call your smallish preflop raise and the range of hands he'd be willing to do that with is so wide that there is no way you can evern begin to put him on a hand much less a hand he can't call an all in with. And even if you didn't check throw a value bet out there that might look like you are testing the waters or might look like you are hoping for a call. That all in push seems a lot like I don't want this hand to go any further and want to just take it down right now. A please god just fold rather than a I have a good hand and hope I get called.All around I think the hand was played poorly and IMO it should have ended for you with a fold when you saw your cards.

[flintsword]

exec771, on Monday, April 9th, 2007, 2:13 AM, said:

I am a CL at 25/45 final table on stars with 17k next biggest stack is 8k.7 places pay and we are 9 handed so close to bubble.....*** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to mbajpai [Ts 7h]Beelzebub: folds 15lbsNUTS: folds mbajpai: raises 1090 to 1690 KELLYBAR: calls 1690 zTruthOrDare: folds boernirohr: folds Piquette: folds pokermon138: folds ignis 22: folds *** FLOP *** [3c 5c 8c] mbajpai: bets 15480 and is all-in KELLYBAR: calls 4140 and is all-in *** TURN *** [3c 5c 8c] [3h] *** RIVER *** [3c 5c 8c 3h] [Ks] *** SHOW DOWN *** mbajpai: shows [Ts 7h] (a pair of Threes) KELLYBAR: shows [As Kh] (two pair, Kings and Threes) KELLYBAR collected 13010 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 13010 | Rake 0 Board [3c 5c 8c 3h Ks]If I have any club hes 50-50. Am I missing something here or is it a horrible call??

What a great question! I am going to spend a little time on this because I was on the losing side of overplaying my AK recently and this has been the subject of a lot of healthy debate with my friends. That debate has opened my eyes a little about the dynamics of this kind of hand.Since you did not give a lot of information on the game, the play previous to the hand, your table image and the table image of your opponents, it is tough to go into a lot of analysis without making assumptions as we go. You can always hang a guy for assumptions, but after all, that is what a poker forum is all about: you want ideas and opinions that look at the problem from a different point of view. So here we go!Making a play for the blinds with any two cards as chip leader close to the bubble is a play. Since you do not give too much background of play prior to you raising with T7o, I can only assume that the table had tightened up. If it was loose and contesting pots, then clearly raising with T7 makes no sense unless you are gambling and throwing a party. So the table is tight (fair assumption), you raise, and get called.You get called so it is a fair bet you are facing a pp or Ax. In a purely mathematical sense, you have to understand that you are either getting called with garbage (unlikely, this *is* a final table after all) or you are "in the hunt for six outs".The flop does not give you anything, you did not gain any edge on any of the range of hands (pp + Ax) that he called your T7 with, and you are behind.You can bluff at the flop if you want, but since two out of three times a player will not connect with a flop, he can take the position that his AK had good chances to still be ahead.Additionally, overplaying AK is pretty common in any case. I know I overplay it and in fact lost most of my stack in the early stages of the WPT Paris Qualifier last Saturday on FullTiltPoker (which I ultimately won & yes I am going to Paris to play). AK is a tough hand to play but it is a strong hand.What are the true odds that the AK is behind after that flop?Let's look at it from the point of view of the player holding AK.He has a 2/3 chance you did not connect with the board.He puts you on some sort of a range of hands. Is your table image loose? Is your table image tight? I think a good case can be made that he thought your table image was pretty loose, because he put you on a very broad range of hands. An example of a broad range of hands would be: Any pair 22 - AA, Jx, Qx, Kx, and Ax, where x = 9.Remember this is an example. In this range of hands, he is behind if you connected with the board or if he is facing a pp. The flop is all under 9, so it is not unreasonable for AK to take the position that you did not connect with the board. Note that I am saying that it does not seem *unreasonable* for the player with AK to take the position you missed the flop.In the range of hands (Any pair 22 - AA, Jx, Qx, Kx, and Ax, where x = 9) what are the odds AK is behind?Any pair 22 - AA = (pairs 22, 44, 66, 77, 99, TT, JJ, QQ) + (pairs 33, 55, 88) + (pairs KK - AA) = (8 x 6) + (3+3+3) +(3+3) = 63 hands.Jx (x=9) = J9 + JT + JQ + JK + JA = 16 + 16 + 16 + 12 + 12 = 72 hands ... [JJ is a pair & already counted]Qx (x=9) = Q9 + QT + QK + QA = 16 + 16 + 12 + 12 = 58 hands ... [QJ & QQ are already counted]Kx (x=9) = K9 + KT + KA = 16 + 16 + 9 = 41 hands ... [KJ, KQ, & KK are already counted] Total hands = 63 + 72 + 58 + 41 = 234 hands.Soooooooo here is the situation. In the range (Any pair 22 - AA, Jx, Qx, Kx, and Ax, where x = 9) the AK is behind in 63 out of 234 hands, or about 27% of the hands.Or in better words, the AK is ahead 73% of the time. There are other ways of doing this, of course, but this exercise is worth doing once in a while. WHat this shows is that even for a broad range of hands, the AK has good reason to believe he is ahead.Also note that you are outside of the range of hands considered by the player with AK, so in actual fact, he is further ahead than he thinks he is.So I think his call is correct.I am *not* saying that your raise with T7 is wrong, ... I mean, they are your cards and you had some reason to make a play at the pot at that time. The real problem is that someone to your left woke up with a hand and called.I hope this point of view helps and I hope my math is right .Good luck in your games!