you need balls of steel to make this river call.

[akishore 0]

(or you just have to be a donkey like me. :-) )Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is Button with A:club:, T:club:. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.Flop: (13.50 SB) 7:heart:, J:heart:, 9:club: (6 players)UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.Turn: (10.75 BB) 6:club: (2 players)MP2 bets, Hero calls.River: (12.75 BB) 7:diamond: (2 players)MP2 bets, Hero calls.Final Pot: 14.75 BBthoughts on the river call?i did it because of the super-draw-heaviness of the flop. assuming i wasn't up against a made hand (i.e. a pair, two pair, a set, or a 10-8 straight), no draw got there on the river.am i up against a missed draw often enough to make this call? i felt like i was.aseem

[Sushiman 0]

Do you have a read on your opponent? This is a very ballsy call here against continued aggression. Even with a rather pot I'd fold this river.

[Vade 0]

*shudders*I guess if you want to make this call because you have a lot invested in the pot, or you want to see his cards or you want to improve your chances of winning later by pulling a Caro and clean up later, I like it.Calling because you think your hand is best...maybe not. The three bet on the flop means the only hand that your opponent could have that you legitamately beat is like A8 of hearts. What else is there unless this player is very VERY illogical

[akishore 0]

Do you have a read on your opponent?

none.aseem

[TheCinciKid 0]

I like the flop raise less than I like the river call. Based on the way the hand played out, I guess it's ok, but it would almost surprise me if MP2 didn't have a Jack.

[akishore 0]

I guess if you want to make this call because you have a lot invested in the pot

nope. i don't think like that, what's in the pot is no longer mine.

or you want to see his cards

nope. i don't pay for information much, it's rarely worth it.

or you want to improve your chances of winning later by pulling a Caro and clean up later

nope. table image is almost irrelevant online, at these stakes.

Calling because you think your hand is best...

this is exactly why i called.

The three bet on the flop means the only hand that your opponent could have that you legitamately beat is like A8 of hearts.

or a flush draw. or something like a monster draw, like a straight flush open-ended or gutshot. or a backdoor flush draw with an open-ended. it IS a draw-heavy board, and no draw got there.

What else is there unless this player is very VERY illogical

you don't have to be illogical to play draws aggressively and make one final stab when you miss. plenty of players do it.aseem

[akishore 0]

I like the flop raise less than I like the river call.

you wouldn't raise this flop, with two people to act behind you, with you on the button?you're not folding, right? if not, raising is usually better. improves your winning chances by cleaning up some of your outs, plus if everyone calls, you're actually pushing an equity edge (a gutshot, a backdoor nut flush draw, and an overcard in a field of six has an edge). also, the fact that we're on the button gets us a free card.and in some cases, you can get heads-up against a draw, in which case you're ahead and you can make this ballsy river call. (not saying this was the case necessarily, but it's very possible, and a raise lets this happen.)aseem

[Mattnxtc 0]

flop raise is alright... since you have a few outs. 2 for the runner flush, 3 clean 8s since the 8 of hearts completes the flsuh and maybe still an ace for so thats maybe 2 outs? Giving 7 outs which doesnt make u a favorite but you may clean up some ace help. Turn you are down to 5 outs which you still have odds to draw to getting 10.75-1river: I personally dont like the call but I dont like to call down with ace high all that often. Against no reads id probably say that folding is the best option. If yo uhave reads on the guy well then maybe calling becomes better but until i think the villian is capable of bluffing the river im folding

[akishore 0]

Turn you are down to 5 outs which you still have odds to draw to getting 10.75-1

i have a flush draw on the turn.

but until i think the villian is capable of bluffing the river im folding

that's the point. i have no read, and don't know if he's capable.but without a read, is your average 2/4 opponent capable of bluffing this river 1 in 13 times? (my pot odds were about 12-to-1, i think.)that is to say... without reads, will i be right 1 in 13 times?i'd say so.aseem

[Mattnxtc 0]

oops forgot about the flush draw. Why not bump it up on the turn and see how he reacts?

[mrdannyg 274]

i like the flop raise as a free card play in a big pot.the gaybet screams to me though of a jack or a non-draw. most 2/4 players at party are not sophisticated enough to gaybet the turn on a drawing hand.having said that, the turn call is automatic, and the river card is pretty nice. neither the turn nor river pair up many drawing hands, so i think a river call here is very reasonable.p.s. - can I guess - Qh, Kh?

[akishore 0]

Why not bump it up on the turn and see how he reacts?

"see how he reacts?"he calls sometimes, what does that mean? does that mean i bluff the river when i miss? how do i use the information/reaction that i get?he three-bets sometime, which really sucks. obviously i can't fold with a clean flush draw to the nuts, so the new information/reaction is completely useless, and i've just charged myself extra to draw.aseem

[akishore 0]

the gaybet screams to me though of a jack or a non-draw. most 2/4 players at party are not sophisticated enough to gaybet the turn on a drawing hand.

there was no gaybet. please reread the hand, he three-bet me then led the turn.aseem

[Mattnxtc 0]

Why not bump it up on the turn and see how he reacts?

"see how he reacts?"he calls sometimes, what does that mean? does that mean i bluff the river when i miss? how do i use the information/reaction that i get?he three-bets sometime, which really sucks. obviously i can't fold with a clean flush draw to the nuts, so the new information/reaction is completely useless, and i've just charged myself extra to draw.aseem

if he just calls...well then you are likely getting a free showdown and/or you can bluff the river if you are unimproved and it costs you teh same...or you make the extra bet if you improveif he 3 bets...then you can fold the river with a clearer idea of where you stood in the hand...and gain an extra bet if you hit ur many draws...havent done the math to see if you improve your ev but considering you have good odds it cant hurt imoim not tryin to rag on ur play aseem just tryin to look at other options thats all...im not sure what i would do and i think sometimes i would raise the turn and sometimes i would just call...just figured id throw out some other options for discussion

[13CARDS 0]

I put the Villian on 8 10 .Flopped the nuts with the straight-flush draw. He bets it all the way!

[Mattnxtc 0]

I put the Villian on 8 10 .Flopped the nuts with the straight-flush draw. He bets it all the way!

quite an ambitious read

[13CARDS 0]

Let's see the results...

[akishore 0]

if he just calls...well then you are likely getting a free showdown and/or you can bluff the river if you are unimproved and it costs you teh same...or you make the extra bet if you improve

i pay the same i would to go to showdown, the times he has a made hand. if he was on a draw, i gain the same by letting him bluff the river. it's true that i charge him to draw the times he is on a draw.

if he 3 bets...then you can fold the river with a clearer idea of where you stood in the hand...and gain an extra bet if you hit ur many draws...

lol, if he three-bets and i fold the river, i paid an extra bet and didn't get to go to showdown either. and i'm pretty sure i gain an extra bet if he has a made hand regardless. i think anyone that gets this aggressive (with a made hand, i mean) will almost always bet the river even when a club comes.

havent done the math to see if you improve your ev but considering you have good odds it cant hurt imo

you should do the math. it does hurt.1/4 of the time, i gain an extra bet (possibly).3/4 of the time, i charge myself to draw and fail to see a showdown, in the process always losing a bet.1/4 (+1 BB at best) + 3/4 (-1 BB) = -0.5 BB at best

im not tryin to rag on ur play aseem just tryin to look at other options thats all...im not sure what i would do and i think sometimes i would raise the turn and sometimes i would just call...just figured id throw out some other options for discussion

i know you're not ragging on me. i'm not ragging on you either. just debating.thanks for your replies.aseem

[akishore 0]

Let's see the results...

10 8 , you are a monster reader. TP/MM.jk.no results for a while. this is a really interesting decision, and results are completely irrelevant here; they will only bias the future replies of other posters.aseem

[13CARDS 0]

Could you PM the results to me and then I promise to print them, eat them, and never speak of them again? LOL

[akishore 0]

Could you PM the results to me and then I promise to print them, eat them, and never speak of them again? LOL

yo, relax. :-) you won't get anywhere in this game if you can't objectively analyze a hand without the results. they really don't matter at all.do you really care that much whether i won a $56 pot or lost an extra $4 on the river?aseem

[Petoria 0]

if he just calls...well then you are likely getting a free showdown and/or you can bluff the river if you are unimproved and it costs you teh same...or you make the extra bet if you improve

i pay the same i would to go to showdown, the times he has a made hand. if he was on a draw, i gain the same by letting him bluff the river. it's true that i charge him to draw the times he is on a draw.

if he 3 bets...then you can fold the river with a clearer idea of where you stood in the hand...and gain an extra bet if you hit ur many draws...

lol, if he three-bets and i fold the river, i paid an extra bet and didn't get to go to showdown either. and i'm pretty sure i gain an extra bet if he has a made hand regardless. i think anyone that gets this aggressive (with a made hand, i mean) will almost always bet the river even when a club comes.

havent done the math to see if you improve your ev but considering you have good odds it cant hurt imo

you should do the math. it does hurt.1/4 of the time, i gain an extra bet (possibly).3/4 of the time, i charge myself to draw and fail to see a showdown, in the process always losing a bet.1/4 (+1 BB at best) + 3/4 (-1 BB) = -0.5 BB at best

im not tryin to rag on ur play aseem just tryin to look at other options thats all...im not sure what i would do and i think sometimes i would raise the turn and sometimes i would just call...just figured id throw out some other options for discussion

i know you're not ragging on me. i'm not ragging on you either. just debating.thanks for your replies.aseem

I'm not sure about this math, bc you're not always going to get 3 bet. You might just get a free showdown. You didnt include that. Best case scenario is that you get 3 bet, and hit your club on the river, and get 2 bets out of him on the river.

[akishore 0]

you're right. i'll redo the math when i get home in 15 minutes. gotta run, see ya.aseem

[mrdannyg 274]

didn't notice he 3-bet the flop as opposed to gaybetting turn.i guess that makes it even more likely he's on a draw, so the river call is even easier (though that is most certainly a relative term only).

[GodOfEntropy 0]

I agree that it takes some courage to call this bet on the river. Assuming he does not have a made hand, Q T is a logical hand that 3 bets this flop, maybe A T as well. Given the size of the pot, I have no problem with your calling this on the river - even if you are beat, it does benefit your table image.