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#1321 SuperJon

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:34 PM

View PostDavid_Sklansky, on 04 November 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

So stars (who bring in millions and millions of dollars) should make less than they'd get on welfare so that...why exactly? So that instead of going to a good school with proper facilities and training/medical staff, they might be more likely to accidentally end up in the middle of nowhere, as the dancing monkey for some yokel whose love for the "tradition" of not paying black men for their backbreaking labor prevents him from just rooting for the Thunder or Pacers or w/e?

In my perfect world, all athletes would earn the same amount (by position). Maybe something like $500k/yr (for kickers) up to $10m/yr (for QB's) Then at the end of each season, they can get bonus money based on achievements/stats. I'm just tired of seeing these guys sign huge deals, and then be unable to back it up when the season starts. Joe Flacco is a good example. He won the superbowl and was flawless in the playoffs. That's definitely deserving of some extra money in the bank in the form of a bonus. However, looking at his stats for this season so far, I can't be convinced that he's actually worth 6 years/$120 million.

View PostDavid_Sklansky, on 04 November 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

(BTW SuperJon, I'd just like to commend you on being such a good sport about my going racial in basically every post. It's nothing personal, it's just fun to do it.)

Do you think I'm black?

#1322 BigDMcGee

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:42 PM

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:




Do you think I'm black?

You didn't finish college, what's he supposed to think?
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#1323 David_Sklansky

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

In my perfect world, all athletes would earn the same amount (by position).

Why?

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'm just tired of seeing these guys sign huge deals, and then be unable to back it up when the season starts. Joe Flacco is a good example. He won the superbowl and was flawless in the playoffs. That's definitely deserving of some extra money in the bank in the form of a bonus. However, looking at his stats for this season so far, I can't be convinced that he's actually worth 6 years/$120 million.


It's not about what he contributes on the field. Fans are stupid and would riot if they lost him him, so teams sign players to stupid contracts. Take it up with them.

I'm sick of young stars who play on a contract that's considerably less money than they would be worth if they could sign a new deal. Therefore, I think all team profits should go to the players to chop up however they want, and then maybe they can pay a little stipend to everyone else now and then so they can buy themselves something pretty.

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Do you think I'm black?

I'm sorry, you said you were a dropout so I merely assumed, like McGee said.
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#1324 SuperJon

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostDavid_Sklansky, on 04 November 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Why?



It's not about what he contributes on the field. Fans are stupid and would riot if they lost him him, so teams sign players to stupid contracts. Take it up with them.



I'm not saying it's entirely the player's fault, but they do play a part in contract negotiations.

I just don't agree with paying them a ton of future money for past accomplishments.

#1325 David_Sklansky

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

I'm not saying it's entirely the player's fault, but they do play a part in contract negotiations.

I just don't agree with paying them a ton of future money for past accomplishments.

I don't believe in players getting paid less because of the fact that they used to not be as good as they are now either. It doesn't make a lot of sense that players should have to absorb that downside without the upside.
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#1326 SuperJon

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 07:16 PM

View PostDavid_Sklansky, on 04 November 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

I don't believe in players getting paid less because of the fact that they used to not be as good as they are now either. It doesn't make a lot of sense that players should have to absorb that downside without the upside.

I might agree if you could name some occupations where an employee would earn a higher salary in conjunction with a weaker performance.

I know that if I suddenly stopped being productive at my job, I might not get a decrease in pay, but I certainly wouldn't be offered a raise.

#1327 David_Sklansky

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 07:20 PM

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

I might agree if you could name some occupations where an employee would earn a higher salary in conjunction with a weaker performance.

CEOs are signed to big contracts all the time, and while I don't follow any CEOs by name I would be fairly stunned if none of them were incompetent and/or had to be bought out or something. When you sign someone to a contract, you are gambling.
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#1328 NickCave

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:



I don't think it should be equal, but I do think there should be a cap ($10,000 to $20,000/yr). That way (as mentioned previously) the rich schools can't "buy" their teams.

I also think there should be factors that determine how much each athlete makes. Things like performance and possibly even GPA.

Finally whatever they do get paid shouldn't be a huge amount. As is, I think athletes are highly overpaid, and giving these kids "baller money" probably isn't a great idea.

Schools already try to legally buy teams. Good recruiters and coaching staffs aren't cheap, and holy crap Oregon. Have you seen their model? Spend more on facilities and uniforms every year than NASA's budget. And every professional team does it. Salary caps just artificially keep money in management's pocket.

As for the second part, why do you care how much the market values athletes? I mean, do you just really REALLY love ownership groups or something? You think the Steinbrenners, Cubans, and Lorias of the world are severely under compensated? Oh, and the reason Sklansky keeps making this racial is cause you say stuff like baller money, and put "baller" in quotes, which, you, has some racial connotations.

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:



In my perfect world, all athletes would earn the same amount (by position). Maybe something like $500k/yr (for kickers) up to $10m/yr (for QB's) Then at the end of each season, they can get bonus money based on achievements/stats. I'm just tired of seeing these guys sign huge deals, and then be unable to back it up when the season starts. Joe Flacco is a good example. He won the superbowl and was flawless in the playoffs. That's definitely deserving of some extra money in the bank in the form of a bonus. However, looking at his stats for this season so far, I can't be convinced that he's actually worth 6 years/$120 million.

How do you feel about players that sign reasonable deals, and then outperform their contracts by tens of millions of dollars? Or players on the rookie wage scale, who have the amount they can earn capped? Or football contracts, that can be voided by ownership for any reason?

It sounds like you believe owners should assume none of the risk, which is batshit. You know what? I don't think Flacco is worth 6/120 either, but, first of all, only a fraction of that is guaranteed, and there is no way he's earning it all. Second of all, nobody held a gun to the Ravens head. They made a rash and terrible business decision. How is that not their responsibility?

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

I'm not saying it's entirely the player's fault, but they do play a part in contract negotiations.

I just don't agree with paying them a ton of future money for past accomplishments.

It is zero percent the player's "fault" when he or his agent negotiates for a deal that is heavily in his favor. I can't help but wonder why I'm not hearing an equal amount of frustration from you about owners who earn money off players that are compensated well below their value. Why is it that "overpaid players" and "ballers" is the thing that gets you fired up?

All that money has to go somewhere. Why is the athlete, the group without whom there could be no sports in the first place, the object of your scorn?

Oh, and every raise you've ever gotten was in part based on past accomplishments.

View PostSuperJon, on 04 November 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

I might agree if you could name some occupations where an employee would earn a higher salary in conjunction with a weaker performance.

I know that if I suddenly stopped being productive at my job, I might not get a decrease in pay, but I certainly wouldn't be offered a raise.


Every golden parachute ever deployed.

If you were super productive at your job, negotiated a raise, and then your performance fell off, you'd earn the salary you negotiated, no less. Which is... How is that... not the same? THE EXACT SAME?

#1329 brvheart

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 05:00 AM

View PostThe Machine timestamp=, on 04 November 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Are any of the athletes in the lesser, non-money-making sports on scholarship?

Depends on how big the school is also. I know at ISU, the track team, volleyball team, and even some cheer squad members were on full scholarship. Every coach has a certain number of full scholarships to give out. I'm sure that's not true at small schools.

Also, just for the record, I hate the current NCAA, and think that they are most of the problem.

I'm 100℅ for not holding kids hostage and forcing them to be in school for 'x' number of years. It's just stupid and evil. I can't imagine it's anything but a bribe paid by the NCAA.

Obviously Maurice Clarett is the first to come to mind. Destroyed his life.

I like the idea of amatuer sports, and think of it like any other job. If an employee agrees to their compensation, then they can't complain about it. There are thousands of colleges to choose from, so you aren't limited in options.

All they need to do is remove any limitations at the professional level

View PostiZuma, on 20 August 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

napa I was jesus christing suited, you guys just slipped in before me.

View PostEssay21, on 25 February 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

.

#1330 The Machine

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 08:24 AM

View Postbrvheart, on 05 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

I like the idea of amateur sports, and think of it like any other job. If an employee agrees to their compensation, then they can't complain about it. There are thousands of colleges to choose from, so you aren't limited in options.

The employees here have no options. They can choose one of thousands of colleges, none of which are allowed to pay them. What are you talking about?

#1331 brvheart

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 08:24 PM

View PostThe Machine, on 05 November 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

The employees here have no options. They can choose one of thousands of colleges, none of which are allowed to pay them. What are you talking about?

Tuition is not nothing. I already stated that anyone good enough to play professionally should be allowed to.

View PostiZuma, on 20 August 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

napa I was jesus christing suited, you guys just slipped in before me.

View PostEssay21, on 25 February 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

.

#1332 NickCave

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:04 AM

View Postbrvheart, on 05 November 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

I already stated that anyone good enough to play professionally should be allowed to.

Then what is the point of amateurism? Really?

You're on record as being in favor of amateurism (or the NCAA), in general, and that's a pretty common sentiment. I think the counterpoint, though, is that it's a sham. If you can't profit from your own ability, nobody should be able to profit from it. The notion that Johnny Manziel, professional prospects aside, generates millions upon millions for Texas AM, yet can't write his name on something in exchange for money, is patently absurd. His arm, his talent, is worth millions of dollars. Right now, that money can be collected by Texas AM only. If she shatters his knee tomorrow, he'll never see a penny of that.

I don't understand what you think the value of amateurism IS. Let's talk about it.

#1333 Ron_Mexico

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 05:32 AM

Not a lot of Lebron talk. Had 35/8/8 last night.


And what is amateurism? Olympians in the glory sports make millions in endorsements.
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#1334 FCP Bob

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:33 AM

View PostRon_Mexico, on 06 November 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Not a lot of Lebron talk. Had 35/8/8 last night.


And what is amateurism? Olympians in the glory sports make millions in endorsements.

I love when they talk about Miami going small with Lebron at the 4. He's 6'8" and about 280 lbs, that is not small. It's just that he's so good he can guard every position except the biggest of centers.
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#1335 BigDMcGee

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:43 AM

View PostFCP Bob, on 06 November 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

I love when they talk about Miami going small with Lebron at the 4. He's 6'8" and about 280 lbs, that is not small. It's just that he's so good he can guard every position except the biggest of centers.

Right? That's Karl Malone's size. Were the Jazz going small? They should call it "going big" when they have Lebron on the wing.
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#1336 The Machine

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:22 AM

View PostRon_Mexico, on 06 November 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Not a lot of Lebron talk. Had 35/8/8 last night.

35/8/8 from Lebron isn't worth talking about.


View Postbrvheart, on 05 November 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Tuition is not nothing. I already stated that anyone good enough to play professionally should be allowed to.

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#1337 The Machine

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:45 AM



#1338 CaneBrain

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:55 AM

View PostFCP Bob, on 06 November 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:



I love when they talk about Miami going small with Lebron at the 4. He's 6'8" and about 280 lbs, that is not small. It's just that he's so good he can guard every position except the biggest of centers.

His size is irrelevant. It's going "small" because he can guard 4s and play the point. It's an extra perimeter player.
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#1339 FCP Bob

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:19 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on 06 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

His size is irrelevant. It's going "small" because he can guard 4s and play the point. It's an extra perimeter player.

Most so called stretch 4's are really just perimeter players as well.

Not really a big deal but just illustrates how good he is.
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#1340 The Machine

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:29 AM

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