Top Pair And Nut Flush Draw Oop

[BaseJester 1]

OK so far? How do you want to play this turn?Dont have a cow, heres your converted handFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.25/$0.50 - 9 playersButton: $42.85 SB: $43.25 BB: $131.50 UTG: $72.80 UTG+1: $36.75 MP: $53.80 (Hero)MP2: $64.75 HJ: $25.05 CO: $30.90 Preflop: ($0.75) Hero is MP with (9 players)2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 3 folds, Button raises to $5.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.75Flop: ($11.25) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $4.50, Hero calls $4.50Turn: ($20.25) (2 players)

[BellaireDrew 2]

any reads on villain?usually I 4bet pre/get it in esp being oop. As played tho I c/c down UI and donk river if its a club

[fighter 4]

Any reads ?Without reads I am torn between c/c and c/r on flop. c/r, we only lose against AA. but there is only 1 combo of that. AK is never folding and we are free rolling against them so trying to get as much money in is great for us. He might also make the mistake of shoving flush draws on the flop. However It might scare away AQ and KK,QQ,JJ are folding instantly. c/c, we allow AQ and possibly AJ to value own themselves pretty hard. We also look weaker which might make KK,QQ,JJ barrel off. It also balances our c/c spot for future but at this level that is of limited concern. as playedOn turn c/c is the only option. On river c/c. If club lead or c/r depending on turn bet size

[mtdesmoines 3]

Any reads ?Without reads I am torn between c/c and c/r on flop. c/r, we only lose against AA. but there is only 1 combo of that. AK is never folding and we are free rolling against them so trying to get as much money in is great for us. He might also make the mistake of shoving flush draws on the flop. However It might scare away AQ and KK,QQ,JJ are folding instantly. c/c, we allow AQ and possibly AJ to value own themselves pretty hard. We also look weaker which might make KK,QQ,JJ barrel off. It also balances our c/c spot for future but at this level that is of limited concern. as playedOn turn c/c is the only option. On river c/c. If club lead or c/r depending on turn bet size

A lot of this.

[Ninja Ace 1]

This

usually I 4bet pre/get it in esp being oop.

And this

c/r, we only lose against AA. but there is only 1 combo of that. AK is never folding and we are free rolling against them so trying to get as much money in is great for us. He might also make the mistake of shoving flush draws on the flop.

[rrumsey 0]

a few things:without reads im assuming a 3 bet from the button in your average 50nl game could be plenty wide, i love the flat. granted a 4 bet isnt bad but if he is depolarized here he will simply play perfectly against the play by folding his middling hands and raising/ calling with things we chop with or our behind. we dont know if he is or is not depolarized. but if he is polarized we lose the chance to bluff catch on later streets if we do 4 bet ( bc all his air folds and his strong hands are not foling). so against both a depolarized and polarized range here i like the flat. we just have him crushed equity wise. the only reason i would 4 bet here with this hand is if from reads i knew villain would be stacking off wide pre. then we dont lose value by 4 betting.a c/r wouldnt be -ev for sure, but again we just have him SO crushed equity wise. we have no real impetius to protect our hand. we only hope to keep letting him pour money into the pot and let him think he has FE, so if we call he most likely will be firing again. granted if we have reads that he is the type to cbet then give up i hate not leading the turn. past this i dont cant say much about if i prefer a turn donk or not. it really depends on reads, game flow, and other dynamics. past this it is hard to tell. leading is almost never wrong on the turn thou, it just may not be as optimal depending on the situation. no matter what you do i really never let folding enter the equation.* just to add one more point, by flatting we allow him to walk into coolering himself when he hits AJ, AQ, KJ, KQ hands on the flop when we flop our hand. why push the hands out of his range we want to be able to stack off on later streets. at those who wanna 4 bet or just default to c/r on the flop:why? yah we take the pot down a lot. but we let him play so easily against us at that point. if he fails to cbet we still can easily go for 2 streets of value. this thinking reminds me to something phil galfond said ( stealing this from whaletales): "dont let the emotional satisfaction of winning the hand and feeling good about winning with a good hand let you think it is optimal."anyone dislike what i just said i am more then open to discussing this. would love to get some more discussion back onto this site. really i know im not perfect.

[SuperJon 175]

a c/r wouldnt be -ev for sure, but again we just have him SO crushed equity wise. we have no real impetius to protect our hand.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how is check raising this flop considered protecting our hand?I mean, I guess I just see spots like these as standard "let's try to get all our money in on the flop" because we probably have the best hand and can still get called by AJ and AQ as well as weaker flush draws. Not to mention the obvious that even when we're beat, we still have a good amount of equity.I well say I do like the c/c UI line on the turn and river that was suggested earlier.

[fighter 4]

a few things:without reads im assuming a 3 bet from the button in your average 50nl game could be plenty wide, i love the flat. granted a 4 bet isnt bad but if he is depolarized here he will simply play perfectly against the play by folding his middling hands and raising/ calling with things we chop with or our behind. we dont know if he is or is not depolarized. but if he is polarized we lose the chance to bluff catch on later streets if we do 4 bet ( bc all his air folds and his strong hands are not foling). so against both a depolarized and polarized range here i like the flat. we just have him crushed equity wise. the only reason i would 4 bet here with this hand is if from reads i knew villain would be stacking off wide pre. then we dont lose value by 4 betting.a c/r wouldnt be -ev for sure, but again we just have him SO crushed equity wise. we have no real impetius to protect our hand. we only hope to keep letting him pour money into the pot and let him think he has FE, so if we call he most likely will be firing again. granted if we have reads that he is the type to cbet then give up i hate not leading the turn. past this i dont cant say much about if i prefer a turn donk or not. it really depends on reads, game flow, and other dynamics. past this it is hard to tell. leading is almost never wrong on the turn thou, it just may not be as optimal depending on the situation. no matter what you do i really never let folding enter the equation.* just to add one more point, by flatting we allow him to walk into coolering himself when he hits AJ, AQ, KJ, KQ hands on the flop when we flop our hand. why push the hands out of his range we want to be able to stack off on later streets. at those who wanna 4 bet or just default to c/r on the flop:why? yah we take the pot down a lot. but we let him play so easily against us at that point. if he fails to cbet we still can easily go for 2 streets of value. this thinking reminds me to something phil galfond said ( stealing this from whaletales): "dont let the emotional satisfaction of winning the hand and feeling good about winning with a good hand let you think it is optimal."anyone dislike what i just said i am more then open to discussing this. would love to get some more discussion back onto this site. really i know im not perfect.

lol I knew you had been watching whale tales before you even quoted from it. Your whole post reeks of Baluga. Not a bad thing just an observation. If he is the type to cbet and give up, you suggest donking the turn. I think compared to a c/r on the flop that is the sub optimal line because of our NFD. Letting a turn card peel and donking does nothing but decrease our equity when behind. In fact turn donking shouldn't really be on the cards. The reason we are c/c the flop is to "keep letting him pour money into the pot and let him think he has FE". Leading the turn goes against the game plan.

[rrumsey 0]

1.) Maybe I'm missing something here, but how is check raising this flop considered protecting our hand?2.)I mean, I guess I just see spots like these as standard "let's try to get all our money in on the flop" because we probably have the best hand and can still get called by AJ and AQ as well as weaker flush draws. Not to mention the obvious that even when we're beat, we still have a good amount of equity.I well say I do like the c/c UI line on the turn and river that was suggested earlier.

@1.) bc if we assume a cbet is coming, it then forces him out of the hand a lot. leading would also do so. but if he is cbetting close to every time there is no point to just leading the flop, it nets the same hands calling but without the extra value from the weak parts of his range.@2.) well yah we want the money in. the question is how do we get it in getting the most from villains range. if villain has AQ the money is going in regardless of what we do. im more concerned about the hands that dont wanna call or raise over the c/r but may fire away on multiple streets.

[rrumsey 0]

lol I knew you had been watching whale tales before you even quoted from it. Your whole post reeks of Baluga. Not a bad thing just an observation. If he is the type to cbet and give up, you suggest donking the turn. I think compared to a c/r on the flop that is the sub optimal line because of our NFD. Letting a turn card peel and donking does nothing but decrease our equity when behind. In fact turn donking shouldn't really be on the cards. The reason we are c/c the flop is to "keep letting him pour money into the pot and let him think he has FE". Leading the turn goes against the game plan.

yah im attempting to invoke some baluga here ( and most things but yah he does a great job at explaining preflop).and i see your point. my hope is honestly that he catches something on the turn. im not sure what i do on the turn without reads tbh yet. im still trying to process that.yah ideally im checking, unless we just have a super read that he just isnt ever going to bite. but seeing how we dont know based of the OP i just cant assume anything, which makes this hard to play in a total vacuum. seeing how you clearly picked up on me attempting to be a baluga follower, how do you feel about this hand? and would you still be taking this line with a player that doesnt bluff past the flop? what reads will influence your turn play here? and seriously i do love this hand came up and i get a chance to try and apply things im playing around with in my head. i am NOT saying i know what im try to say here very well, im mostly attempting to work the process myself.

[Ninja Ace 1]

In fact turn donking shouldn't really be on the cards. The reason we are c/c the flop is to "keep letting him pour money into the pot and let him think he has FE". Leading the turn goes against the game plan.

And unfortunately I don't see many villains who turn big pairs in 3bet pots into multistreet bluffs... or villains who multistreet bluff in 3bet pots period, especially on A high boardsEven though it's thin, we get our value here and now from a CR or don't get it at all imo

without reads im assuming a 3 bet from the button in your average 50nl game could be plenty wide, i love the flat. granted a 4 bet isnt bad but if he is depolarized here he will simply play perfectly ... blah blah buzzword bingo

With no reads making ourselves play AK OOP is bad news because our hand rarely gets 2 streets of value from worse when it connects. Readless we can't make ace high call downs. Readless we don't know what boards to pull the trigger on a bluff. You're giving up the pot too often to profit or paying off too often since we can't adjust to his range. 4betting then shipping is certainly +EV and I will take a +EV move to gain information any day over trying something cute blind.

[fighter 4]

yah im attempting to invoke some baluga here ( and most things but yah he does a great job at explaining preflop).and i see your point. my hope is honestly that he catches something on the turn. im not sure what i do on the turn without reads tbh yet. im still trying to process that.yah ideally im checking, unless we just have a super read that he just isnt ever going to bite. but seeing how we dont know based of the OP i just cant assume anything, which makes this hard to play in a total vacuum. seeing how you clearly picked up on me attempting to be a baluga follower, how do you feel about this hand? and would you still be taking this line with a player that doesnt bluff past the flop? what reads will influence your turn play here? and seriously i do love this hand came up and i get a chance to try and apply things im playing around with in my head. i am NOT saying i know what im try to say here very well, im mostly attempting to work the process myself.

Since there is an ace on the flop, there isn't any card that can peel on the turn that is going to give him a second best hand that would want to put more money into the pot.eg, If he has KQ and turn is Qd, he isn't going to think you are donk betting 9x here for value. He also isn't going to check behind and call a river bet, he will just check twice. However there is 1-2 outs for a lot of his pocket pairs. Also if he does have AA, then we have put our money into the pot with 18% ev instead of 28% ev. So if his revolver only has 1 shell, then c/r flop is the play. I posted my thoughts above. Didn't post my thoughts about pre flop though. Like you said IF he is 3betting wide and IF he has a depolarized with AJ, AQ, KJ, KQ type hand and IF he stacks off with those hands post flop, THEN I like the call pre flop. We have just made 3 BIG assumptions though.AK post flop will not make a pair 2/3 of the time. We also don't know anything about the villain so I think it will be very hard to play the hand profitably in those situations. Flop comes , 3c4s5s, J35r, 964r, XXX He cbets. Ok now what. Are we going to c/c here and hope he shuts down, we going to c/c twice and hope he doesn't fire bluff river and hasn't been bluffing us with a small pocket pair. Are we going to check/raise committing 22-30bb on another hunch (that he won't bluff shove light or float). Are we going to c/f and hope that he commits enough money when he has AJ, AQ, KJ, KQ on Axx Kxx flops that we can make calling pre and folding 2/3 the time a profitable play (assuming he is depolarized to begin with). We win money in poker by making less mistakes then our opponents. Without information we don't know what the mistake is here. Until we gather reads, 4betting preflop will let us to realise our equity and reduce our potential for making mistakes.

[fighter 4]

With no reads making ourselves play AK OOP is bad news because our hand rarely gets 2 streets of value from worse when it connects. Readless we can't make ace high call downs. Readless we don't know what boards to pull the trigger on a bluff. You're giving up the pot too often to profit or paying off too often since we can't adjust to his range. 4betting then shipping is certainly +EV and I will take a +EV move to gain information any day over trying something cute blind.

It took a while to type out my reply. I should have just made myself a sandwich, came back and said "^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^"

[BaseJester 1]

Since there is an ace on the flop, there isn't any card that can peel on the turn that is going to give him a second best hand that would want to put more money into the pot.eg, If he has KQ and turn is Qd, he isn't going to think you are donk betting 9x here for value. He also isn't going to check behind and call a river bet, he will just check twice. However there is 1-2 outs for a lot of his pocket pairs.

Makes sense. The only way he can catch up - but not overtake - our hand is to hit a set with a club. That's asking the poker gods for one specific card out of the deck.

Also if he does have AA, then we have put our money into the pot with 18% ev instead of 28% ev.

I don't think it matters what we do on the flop if he has AA. All of the money will end up in the pot on turn, regardless of what falls. So I wouldn't let the optimal play against AA influence my decision on the flop.

[trystero 0]

wisdom itt

[KingJames 11]

wisdom itt

troofAlso, I think BW has been super spewy and just bad in WhaleTales.I just got through ep 4.AQ vs K9 was trrbl, even him making the crying call for the sake of the video.QJ vs KK realllllly badAnd lots of other spots... he claims he wants to get back into crushing cash games, but imo all he's done is continue doing what he did in 2006/2007 and it isn't working. He honestly needs to get coaching from someone who actually plays/beats msnl now.thoughts??

[trystero 0]

where's that vid at again James? I didn't d/l it the other night

[rrumsey 0]

troofAlso, I think BW has been super spewy and just bad in WhaleTales.I just got through ep 4.AQ vs K9 was trrbl, even him making the crying call for the sake of the video.QJ vs KK realllllly badAnd lots of other spots... he claims he wants to get back into crushing cash games, but imo all he's done is continue doing what he did in 2006/2007 and it isn't working. He honestly needs to get coaching from someone who actually plays/beats msnl now.thoughts??

only seen the first 3 episodesbeen watching turning turbo tricks by AMTMTT Principles by Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaang6 (idk how many a's but yah if you have seen the name you know it)@ baluga, i mean the best stuff he did was coaching tree and coaching kristy. that is hard to top. and idk if he is being spewy per say but maybe just overthinking 1-2 which is leading him into problems.

[rrumsey 0]

And lots of other spots... he claims he wants to get back into crushing cash games, but imo all he's done is continue doing what he did in 2006/2007 and it isn't working. He honestly needs to get coaching from someone who actually plays/beats msnl now.thoughts??

havent seen that video yet, but i think he could use some talking with someone he respects about his plays. the problem is i think he is still using his 5-10 + mindset to try and pull some moves at 1-2 that just are not needed. but hey who am i to critique him i am not a cash game player and not a winning 1-2 playerwonder if he made friends with jungleman when he took baluga for so much? i would hit him up. guy takes a million or so off you, the least you can do is help him beat 1-2 and him get back up so you can beat him again.

[MaxStPolish 4]

I <3 this thread.

[KingJames 11]

I <3 this thread.

will you plzzzz add me on skype or AIM... i need to have conversations with you, espec during the neg-osick 4betbluff btw... it was masterful

[rrumsey 0]

yah after talking to some cash game players they say the flat would only be with postflop reads. sigh.