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Quiz Question #21


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Poll: No Limit Hold'em (348 member(s) have cast votes)

What would you do?

  1. Call (199 votes [57.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.18%

  2. Fold (149 votes [42.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.82%

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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 11:32 AM

It's the very first hand of the WSOP main event and there are 12,000 players. At your table are Phil Ivey, Gus Hansen, and six other players you've never seen before. Everyone folds to the small blind. When he peeks at his cards, you see that he has the Q :D J :D. For some bizarre reason, he decides to go all in??? You are in the big blind and have the A :D K :club:. The question is simple: call or fold?
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#2 semaj550

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 11:36 AM

Simple for me: I'm not gambling my tourney early on as a 3:2 favourite when 20,000 chips isn't going to get me any deeper into the 12,000 player field than 10,000.

#3 myenemy

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 11:57 AM

View Postsemaj550, on Monday, September 11th, 2006, 3:36 PM, said:

Simple for me: I'm not gambling my tourney early on as a 3:2 favourite when 20,000 chips isn't going to get me any deeper into the 12,000 player field than 10,000.
While I realize you want to avoid being all in, aren't you going to HAVE to get lucky sometimes, and push your edges? Furthermore, how do you figure 20K wont get you further than 10K? You have to start somewhere. This is a pretty tough decision though. I suppose it comes down to assessing the value of having the extra 10K at that point in the tourney to your final results.

#4 Acid_Knight

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 11:58 AM

I think that often this should be a fairly standard call. While 20K chips won't get me that much closer to 120 million or so, it does put me in a better position to deal with the 2 super aggressive players who will likely control the whole table.The best players talk about avoiding coin flips early on, but you're a 3-2 favorite here and since everyone folded to the blinds, you can reasonably assume that it's more likely that the folded hands would include Qs and Js instead of As and Ks so his outs are more likely to be folded than yours.If you win this hand, then Hansen and Ivey have to fear going broke when they play a hand with you. They also see that you're willing to make what looks like a loose call (calling your stack in the first level with AK is DEFINITELY loose) so you can use that image to your advantage.It's a marginal situation but when do you start taking risks? You KNOW you're ahead. I think that you have to call and take chances. If you lose, then it just wasn't your year to win the WSOP...

#5 semaj550

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 12:02 PM

View Postmyenemy, on Monday, September 11th, 2006, 3:57 PM, said:

While I realize you want to avoid being all in, aren't you going to HAVE to get lucky sometimes, and push your edges? Furthermore, how do you figure 20K wont get you further than 10K? You have to start somewhere. This is a pretty tough decision though. I suppose it comes down to assessing the value of having the extra 10K at that point in the tourney to your final results.
It's early and you're deep stacked, you are likely to be presented with future opportunities to get your money in as a better favorite. I try to advoid 3:2 or 50:50 situations when I'm deep stacked and early in the tournament.Having Phil Ivey and Gus Hansen at my table would make me consider a call but I would rather try to get my money in against one of the other 6 in a better spot.It's not dissimilar to having AA in the BB on the first hand and having all 9 players go all in ahead of you. If you call you are likely done on the first hand but mathemathcially you're getting the odds to call (if you only consider simple pot odds).Part of playing a tournament is looking at the big picture and I believe it is best to reduce your risk by giving up a small amount of equity on this hand.

#6 Moneyball16

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 12:14 PM

If its me I call. If we are talking about DN then I would probably fold.

#7 Balloon guy

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 12:17 PM

The real question is what time is the tee time that is making Phil Ivey push this hard with QJ hearts?
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#8 Acid_Knight

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 12:37 PM

View PostMoneyball16, on Monday, September 11th, 2006, 1:14 PM, said:

If its me I call. If we are talking about DN then I would probably fold.
I think that it's important to assess your abilities. While I figure to play well, Hansen and Ivey would definitely crush me. Also, the other 6 players, while you might not know them, might all be internet or local professionals, who might also be better than you (less the tool who cold pushed 10K with QJh to win your 50 chips).I think for anyone but some of the best pros, this is a clear call.

#9 DaRockets

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 12:43 PM

There is no way I would ever call off all of my chips in the very first hand of the wsop ME knowing it is virtually a race. 3 to 2 is not good enough for me. I understand you have to gamble to win in big tournys however there is just no way i would make the call there!DOS
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#10 BigDMcGee

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 12:43 PM

Maybe DN wouldn't call here, but if I'm at a table with Ivey and hanson, I'm going to need all the chips I can get. Call no brainer
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#11 Kestral123

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 01:03 PM

I can't see folding this. That's a pretty significant positive expected value. I suppose you can make an argument that a highly skilled pro can wait for a better opportunity, but I'm not buying it. If I'm a clear favorite, as here, and particularly for average donks like me, I don't see how you pass up an edge like that.
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#12 burgerman

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 01:18 PM

For a donk like me, the opportunity to watch and learn from Hansen and Ivey is what is most important. In order to progress in the tournament, you will need to win dozens of races. And you'll have lots of time to be in them. While the 3-2 favorite is substantial, there is a 40% chance you will exit the game and not get to test your skills against what are two of the game's toughest players. Learning from them for 3-4 hours would be invaluable to my future development. In poker, after you've got the math it's all about experience. I would fold to ensure I had this experience against Ivey and Hansen.Best --Burgerman

#13 Head_Trauma

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 02:03 PM

This is such an easy and obvious fold. I wouldn't make this call if I knew the first 4 board cards were 2479 with no hearts. It's risk vs. reward. You start the ME with an M over 100, why risk the whole event just to get to 200? You have a maniac on your right who you will be able to exploit for as long as you two are at the same table. Play small ball. Having 2 pros at your table does not change the scenario.

#14 Acid_Knight

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 02:15 PM

View PostHead_Trauma, on Monday, September 11th, 2006, 3:03 PM, said:

This is such an easy and obvious fold. I wouldn't make this call if I knew the first 4 board cards were 2479 with no hearts. It's risk vs. reward. You start the ME with an M over 100, why risk the whole event just to get to 200? You have a maniac on your right who you will be able to exploit for as long as you two are at the same table. Play small ball. Having 2 pros at your table does not change the scenario.
You're not going to get your money in as a 6.3-1 favorite with one card to come? :club: By that logic, you're folding the nut flush on the turn on an unpaired board becuase you KNOW your opponent has a set. After all, if he could hit one of his 10 outs.Why even bother playing poker?

#15 checkymcfold

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 03:24 PM

if anything i've heard about the ME is true, i don't care about ivey and hansen because the rest of those idiots are dead money. i fold.seriously, though, this decision hinges more on an assessment of one's abilities relative to the field than anything else. 20k vs 10k at the first level is a pretty small difference, even if it's going to allow you to push around your table (which is unlikely considering the two sharks across from you).or put better, if you felt good enough about yourself to actually sit at the table in the ME, you should feel good enough about them to fold a 3:2 shot on the first hand of the thing.
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#16 eandreas

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 04:23 PM

You're leading, it's gambling, grab your balls and call it. The other way to look at is, if the guy is that stupid to push queen jack that early, that person is a chicken fried dumbass and you should wait for a better spot. Depends on your mood, really, on any given day.

#17 David_Nicoson

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 04:28 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Monday, September 11th, 2006, 3:32 PM, said:

It's the very first hand of the WSOP main event and there are 12,000 players. At your table are Phil Ivey, Gus Hansen, and six other players you've never seen before. Everyone folds to the small blind. When he peeks at his cards, you see that he has the Q :D J :D. For some bizarre reason, he decides to go all in??? You are in the big blind and have the A :D K :club:. The question is simple: call or fold?
I haven't decided yet, but I know I'd be more inclined to call if Ivey is the SB. He's scares the **** out of me.
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#18 gilbertology

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 05:21 PM

Call, and then go out drinking the rest of the day win or lose.A good reason for folding is that you'll be at the TV table, so you want some TV time laying down your hands to Gus and Phil's bluffs.
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#19 General Forum

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 06:05 PM

i would callwith gus and ivey at my table im gonna need that 20,000u know your ahead so go for it

#20 greatwhite

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 07:19 PM

I would fold without queens, kings, or aces. The risk vs the reward just isn't there. Plus I know I'll be able to outplay Ivey and Gus for their chips anyways.




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