22 replies to this topic

[CobaltBlue]

Here's a live hand from a couple of weeks ago. (I may've discussed it with some of you previously.)Hard Rock Tampa 2/5 NLHE (10-handed)UTG $450UTG+1 $500MP1 $400MP2 $350MP3 $400HJ $650CO $500Cobalt $720SB $400BB $350Cobalt Mississippi Straddles the Button with : :. Game is quite loose and players are generally pretty bad. UTG is capable of some moves. UTG+1 is a young-ish chick that seems sort of competent despite initially buying in for $200. We clashed in an early pot where she limped pre in early, checked an 875r flop, c/ced a 6 turn, and then CRAI a river 9 (no flush possible) and I had to fold. Nothing too specific in the way of reads yet.Pre-flop:SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Cobalt checksFlop ($67): (6 players)UTG bets $15, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Cobalt callsTurn ($142): (6 players)UTG bets $65, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Cobalt callsRiver ($402): (4 players)UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $150, 1 fold, Cobalt ?On the turn, the chick made a quick show of "Really?" to the $65 bet. She bets large chips on the river and basically stared quietly at the felt.Thoughts? Comments on all streets welcome.

[DWMREP]

I like the flop action. If you raise you will only get hands that you crush to fold. Any spade draw (especially at a bad table) won't fold unless you put a HUGE raise in, which would lead to you only getting called by a better hand. Same thing on the turn, if you raise you are only getting called by a stronger hand, say 77, 88 or less likely a better deuce. Usually when a player makes a comment like 'really?', especially someone who thinks they are great, it can mean just about anything because she probably just wants people to think she is smart. I've seen that a lot anyways. The UTG player checking the river is a great sign for you. Why would he check the ace on the river with a hand that had you beaten the whole way? I wouldn't be too worried about him at all. As for the girl betting the river, I don't like it but I don't think you can really fold. The pot odds are good and you can also factor in the info. into your pot odds ($552+information :$150). Raising the river is a bad idea IMO. You may also get an overcall from the UTG player.Just make sure you make her show her hand first. She may just say 'ace' or something along those lines but it might tilt her to have to show what she had the whole time. Usually I try to be a nice guy and show the winner asap but this is a big game so.....

[BaseJester]

DWMREP, on Tuesday, May 17th, 2011, 2:38 PM, said:

I like the flop action. If you raise you will only get hands that you crush to fold. Any spade draw (especially at a bad table) won't fold unless you put a HUGE raise in, which would lead to you only getting called by a better hand.

I think you just said, "If we intentionally size our raise so that worse hands won't call, worse hands won't call. Therefore, we shouldn't raise."

[shynepo3]

i think you have to call. ...i'd be surprised for her to turn up with a hand that beats you. utg looks like he has a 7 or mid pair, or a busted flush draw ....for her, she either has you crushed, but probably not...maybe ace/7?i suck, so whatever

[DWMREP]

I guess the point was that you're only going to get called if you are beat, so you are probably better off letting them bet/call etc. especially since the scare cards (spades, 7, 8) are obvious and you can safely fold if they hit. If they don't hit, you have more a bluff catcher than a hand you can value raise with.

[trystero]

I just call and lose to 7s full, glad that I didn't hit a 4

[Swift_Psycho]

CobaltBlue, on Tuesday, May 17th, 2011, 11:16 AM, said:

On the turn, the chick made a quick show of "Really?" to the $65 bet.

This can be pretty significant I think, but you need to describe this observation better. Was it one of those quick shows that's an act, or was it genuine surprise?

[CobaltBlue]

Swift_Psycho, on Tuesday, May 17th, 2011, 7:23 PM, said:

This can be pretty significant I think, but you need to describe this observation better. Was it one of those quick shows that's an act, or was it genuine surprise?

It was hard to figure. Really could've been either/both.

[shynepo3]

trystero, on Tuesday, May 17th, 2011, 6:02 PM, said:

I just call and lose to 7s full, glad that I didn't hit a 4

that sounds good too..so...ahem...results? i know there wasn't much thoughtful or helpful discussion except for a few posts...but im damn curious..loldid the girl have air (busted flush draw)?

[pokerinc]

I'm calling all day there. The bet sizing is more a 'I guess I'll bet if no one else wants it' than a 'I've got it' or 'I want you to think I've got it.'If I'm wrong, it's all good b/c I feel like they should have gotten more out of me.

[Swift_Psycho]

Swift_Psycho, on Tuesday, May 17th, 2011, 8:23 PM, said:

This can be pretty significant I think, but you need to describe this observation better. Was it one of those quick shows that's an act, or was it genuine surprise?

CobaltBlue, on Tuesday, May 17th, 2011, 8:31 PM, said:

It was hard to figure. Really could've been either/both.

Also, does "big" chips mean $25 chips? She slide them into the pot or splash them or some third option? I'm probably focusing too much on physical reads, but I feel like in live hands this stuff is a dimension we don't look at enough because we're all used to online play more.Overall, I probably simultaneously hate myself and call the river. Rest of hand I probably play the same way.

[CobaltBlue]

Swift_Psycho, on Wednesday, May 18th, 2011, 10:46 AM, said:

Also, does "big" chips mean $25 chips? She slide them into the pot or splash them or some third option?

She bet one black and two green...and I believe she just placed them neatly.And yeah, online, I think this bet isn't "big", but live, it's kind of big.

[Swift_Psycho]

Swift_Psycho, on Wednesday, May 18th, 2011, 11:46 AM, said:

Also, does "big" chips mean $25 chips? She slide them into the pot or splash them or some third option? I'm probably focusing too much on physical reads, but I feel like in live hands this stuff is a dimension we don't look at enough because we're all used to online play more.Overall, I probably simultaneously hate myself and call the river. Rest of hand I probably play the same way.

CobaltBlue, on Wednesday, May 18th, 2011, 2:52 PM, said:

She bet one black and two green...and I believe she just placed them neatly.

A timid-looking bet into 3 players who've been betting/calling bets the whole way down? I'm thinking that you're beat now, but I'd probably be too stubborn to fold anyway just on the chance that she's betting an Ace or using the river as a scarecard.I'm also hoping you post results soon, as I'm quite curious now.

[shynepo3]

why would chip denomination have anything to do with it?

[Swift_Psycho]

shynepo3, on Wednesday, May 18th, 2011, 5:05 PM, said:

why would chip denomination have anything to do with it?

Obviously there's a lot of exceptions to every rule in live play, but sometimes choice of chip denomination can tell you what the player wants his/her bet to look like. A giant stack of nickels splashed into the pot isn't the same as one black and two greens neatly placed. Again, I know there are exceptions to every rule (and that it's hard to take described tells seriously since I can't actually see what exactly the villain looks like myself or exactly how competent she seems), but given that this is live play, it just seems intellectually lazy to ONLY look at betting patterns and ignore any possible additional information that might be available.

[Pot Odds RAC]

Swift_Psycho, on Wednesday, May 18th, 2011, 5:17 PM, said:

Obviously there's a lot of exceptions to every rule in live play, but sometimes choice of chip denomination can tell you what the player wants his/her bet to look like. A giant stack of nickels splashed into the pot isn't the same as one black and two greens neatly placed. Again, I know there are exceptions to every rule (and that it's hard to take described tells seriously since I can't actually see what exactly the villain looks like myself or exactly how competent she seems), but given that this is live play, it just seems intellectually lazy to ONLY look at betting patterns and ignore any possible additional information that might be available.

Also what I've seen is people are willing to part more freely with small denomination chips - there is more perceived value in a Black Chip. They'll get rid of all of their whites on a draw that they are expecting to lose.I think a Turn Raise might have been a better line, but as played I call the River.

[CobaltBlue]

I actually strongly considered raising both the flop and the turn. However, I think a flop raise would probably be better than a turn raise. Ultimately I decided that it was going to be hard to get called by anything worse other than some draws (and people might not even like those on a paired board). Initially, I was also a smidge worried about someone having a better deuce. By the river, that was no longer a concern. UTG was mostly irrelevant after he checks the river. Also, I knew the girl basically couldn't have a deuce other than A2s (but that would be impossible based on suits). Therefore, she either had 77/88 or I had her beat. I was't quite sure how thinly she'd bet the river...I was concerned that she wouldn't bet too thinly...maybe As8s or Ah7h? I also was rather concerned that the turn reaction was some hollywooding.After very strongly pondering a fold, I finally made a tortured/crying call and got shown 77. Guess I was fortunate to avoid losing more than I did...though I wish someone would've just raised pre so that I could've folded.

[rrumsey]

I'm raising the flop for value but also nc it gives our hand a chance to have draws that we can bluff with and induce more calls bc we have some weak hands in I mean if we kinda project out our plan the turn can be a massive cluster f*ck this multi way and there are loads of cards that kills our actionAnd sorry for any weird misspells I'm on my phone

[rrumsey]

Oh and btw word on the street is bodog is not taking new deposits you may wanna keep and eye on that and make sure you don't have too much $ sitting on there

[Danege]

If they're not taking deposits, shouldn't he be worried that he doesn't have enough on there?