The Old Testament

[chrisuk_sw 0]

HelloI am a non-Christian, and am a bit confused about the relationship between the two books of the Christian Bible. To me, the Old Testament appears to contain savage and sadistic cruelty, terrible injustice and some outright nonsenseAs a Christian, what do you feel about the morality of the acts and laws outlined in the Old Testament? Does acceptance of the Jesus of the New Testament tally with the stuff in the Old?Can the bad stuff in the Old Testament be disregarded or are you not allowed to choose selectively what you want from it?What does your relationship with the Old Testament inform to you in your belief in Christianity?

[crowTrobot 2]

the NT may be less violent (not that much really), but for practical purposes it is every bit as nonsensical as the OT. justifying belief in either as the inspired word of god pretty much requires the same type of false rationalizations.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

HelloI am a non-Christian, and am a bit confused about the relationship between the two books of the Christian Bible. To me, the Old Testament appears to contain savage and sadistic cruelty, terrible injustice and some outright nonsenseAs a Christian, what do you feel about the morality of the acts and laws outlined in the Old Testament? Does acceptance of the Jesus of the New Testament tally with the stuff in the Old?Can the bad stuff in the Old Testament be disregarded or are you not allowed to choose selectively what you want from it?What does your relationship with the Old Testament inform to you in your belief in Christianity?

"sadistic" I don't know where you get that, nor "injustice" It wasn't out of cruelty, but justice that the violent acts of the old testament occurred. The isrealites were under the law of the coventant at that time. Punishment for breaking the law was death. The only way to make ammends for sin was blood sacrifice. Those societies that worshipped other gods and were a threat to the isrealites were to be wiped out because they were like a cancer against the law and had to be removed completely to prevent the spreading of corruption thruoghout the isrealites. Even irealites were put to death for breaking commandments of not honoring the Sabbath, and worshipping false gods ( graven image= golden calf). I don't pretend to understand every detail of the old testament. Even though David was required to go and fight many bloody battles, he was still punished for being so warlike. The sins committed by the isrealites were paid for by blood later. If they had been obedient from the beginning they would have avioded the trials they later went through. That was a consistant theme throughout the old ( and new for that matter) testament. Disobedience = death & destruction

[chrisuk_sw 0]

"sadistic" I don't know where you get that, nor injustice...

Well, just using one story in Genesis as an example, there's the story of Noah."6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."So God decides man is wicked because of man's evil imagination. God then wishes he'd never made us or the animals. God decides to kill not only every man, woman and child but also every animal on the face of the planet. Sounds fair. Noah finds favour because God believes Noah to be a just and perfect man. Noah builds an ark as commanded, grabs two of every animal (are you kidding?) and then God drowns and kills everything that lives in the world. Brutal.After the flood 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.This is the best bit: after God enjoys the smell of the animals that Noah burns for him, God says to himself "I'm not going to kill everything that lives because man's imagination is evil from his youth". What? That's exactly the reason God gave for killing everything in the first place!Or there's the story of Lot & His Wife where God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gemorrah and then kills Lot's wife for looking back. Then there's the story of David and Goliath that says explicitly that Goliath was ten feet tall. No he wasn't. Or then there's when Moses' army fights the Midanites. His army kills every adult Midanite man at the instruction of its commanders. When his commanders tell Moses this, Moses gets angry with them - they haven't gone far enough so Moses commands them to murder all the male children, infants and newborns too and to also murder every non-virginal woman. etc. etc.

[Flack_attack 0]

Don't take the Bible literally.Thanks.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

... doesn't that mean don't believe it? at all?

[Mattnxtc 0]

Well, just using one story in Genesis as an example, there's the story of Noah."6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."So God decides man is wicked because of man's evil imagination. God then wishes he'd never made us or the animals. God decides to kill not only every man, woman and child but also every animal on the face of the planet. Sounds fair. Noah finds favour because God believes Noah to be a just and perfect man. Noah builds an ark as commanded, grabs two of every animal (are you kidding?) and then God drowns and kills everything that lives in the world. Brutal.After the flood 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.This is the best bit: after God enjoys the smell of the animals that Noah burns for him, God says to himself "I'm not going to kill everything that lives because man's imagination is evil from his youth". What? That's exactly the reason God gave for killing everything in the first place!Or there's the story of Lot & His Wife where God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gemorrah and then kills Lot's wife for looking back. Then there's the story of David and Goliath that says explicitly that Goliath was ten feet tall. No he wasn't. Or then there's when Moses' army fights the Midanites. His army kills every adult Midanite man at the instruction of its commanders. When his commanders tell Moses this, Moses gets angry with them - they haven't gone far enough so Moses commands them to murder all the male children, infants and newborns too and to also murder every non-virginal woman. etc. etc.

see heres the problems with your examples...you take them out of context... Its like saying..."A man killed someone" sounds awful...then you find out the dead person was an intruder with a gun...then it make senseyour first example:God could not condon sin on the earth. So yes he decided to clear the earth of sin. But He gave man warning. Gave them time to join Noah and they laughed at God. They turned their back on God, He didnt turn on them. Your second example:Notice that God saw the goodness in man and said I will give htem a shot to overcome the sin that comes from birth (see the Garden of Eden). So this is a God who is willing to give us a chance. Not so bad at all. BTW sacrifices were common from most religions so this isnt odd to anybody in that time. Your examples of Lot are just bad examples. Sodom and Gommorah were examples of complete corruption. Lot was able to convince God to let him get the "good people" out of the land. Though God asked one simple thing through His angles. Do not look back at the cities where sin was. Genesis 19:17 When they had brought them outside, one said, "Escape for your life! Do not look behind you, and do not stay anywhere in the valley; escape to the mountains, or you will be swept away." But what we did see was God giving good a chance to get away from cities in deep sin.So we constantly have seen God offer patience and giving man a chance yet it is man who consistantly has failed...not God

[Flack_attack 0]

... doesn't that mean don't believe it? at all?

No, it means don't take the whole thing literally.

[crowTrobot 2]

see heres the problems with your examples...you take them out of context... Its like saying..."A man killed someone" sounds awful...then you find out the dead person was an intruder with a gun...then it make senseyour first example:God could not condon sin on the earth. So yes he decided to clear the earth of sin. But He gave man warning. Gave them time to join Noah and they laughed at God. They turned their back on God, He didnt turn on them. Your second example:Notice that God saw the goodness in man and said I will give htem a shot to overcome the sin that comes from birth (see the Garden of Eden). So this is a God who is willing to give us a chance. Not so bad at all. BTW sacrifices were common from most religions so this isnt odd to anybody in that time. Your examples of Lot are just bad examples. Sodom and Gommorah were examples of complete corruption. Lot was able to convince God to let him get the "good people" out of the land. Though God asked one simple thing through His angles. Do not look back at the cities where sin was. Genesis 19:17 When they had brought them outside, one said, "Escape for your life! Do not look behind you, and do not stay anywhere in the valley; escape to the mountains, or you will be swept away." But what we did see was God giving good a chance to get away from cities in deep sin.So we constantly have seen God offer patience and giving man a chance yet it is man who consistantly has failed...not God

genesis is fable, matt. whatever you think of the historical accuracy of the NT, surely you're smart enough to accept that by now.

[brvheart 1,752]

genesis is fable, matt. whatever you think of the historical accuracy of the NT, surely you're smart enough to accept that by now.

LOLCrow, surely you're smart enough to know that you know nothing that you claim as fact... Everything you believe is based on faith. Surely you're smart enough to realize that?

[crowTrobot 2]

Everything you believe is based on faith. Surely you're smart enough to realize that?

i am smart enough to realize that the only reason you maintain belief in genesis as literal is because of your ego.

[Nacho Libre 0]

i am smart enough to realize that the only reason you maintain belief in genesis as literal is because of your ego.

Maybe you just wrestle and see who better man is? Nacho read bible many times. Good stories, true stories, about life and love and good and evil. Maybe if people open there hearts they can see truth in stories. Maybe they cannot read. Nacho doesn't know.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

see heres the problems with your examples...you take them out of context... Its like saying..."A man killed someone" sounds awful...then you find out the dead person was an intruder with a gun...then it make sense

That's the thing. I was very careful not to take examples out of context. I carefully read the start of the bible. Genesis 1:1-2:7 The CreationGenesis 2:8-2:15 The Garden of EdenGenesis 2:16-2:25 Adam and EveGenesis 3:1-3:24 The serpent, the apple and the exile of Adam and EveGenesis 4:1-4:15 Cain and AbelGenesis 4:16-5:32 A list of the descendents of Adam (Noah is one of the last listed)Here is the story of Noah. I'll go passage by passage so I don't miss anything.Genesis 6:1-6:4 Mankind spreads across the worldGenesis 6:5-6:7 God sees mankind is wicked and evil in his heart. God regrets ever making man. God decides to kill everything that breathes because of this.Genesis 6:8-6:10 Noah being righteous, finds favour with GodGenesis 6:11-6:10 God tells Noah he is going to destroy the worldGenesis 6:12-6:21 God tells Noah to build an ark for him, his family and 2 of each animal. Noah builds the ark.Genesis 6:22-7:5 God tells him Noah his family and two of every animal may board the ark because in a week there will be a 40 day floodGenesis 7:6-7:9 Noah, his family and the animals board the arkGenesis 7:10-7:17 The flood begins on the same dayGenesis 7:18-7:24 Every living thing is drownedGenesis 8:1-8:5 The flood waters recedeGenesis 8:6-8:11 Noah sends out a raven, then a dove, which eventually returns with an olive leafGenesis 8:12-8:14 The earth driesGenesis 8:15-8:19 God tells Noah to go forth and multiplyGenesis 8:20-8:22 God tells Noah he won't kill everything that breathes again because man has evil in his heartYou say "But He gave man warning. Gave them time to join Noah and they laughed at God." This is not in the Bible. There is absolutely nothing like this in the Bible. Between making the decision to kill (Genesis 6:5) and the actual killing (Genesis 7:21) the Bible does not mention any warning nor it doesn't mention mankind's reaction. What the Bible says is that God kills everything because of man's evil imagination. God then decides not to kill everything again because man's imagination is evil. God's actions are completely indefensible.Genesis 9:1-9:29 God tells Noah what to eat and how. God makes rainbows to remind himself not to drown the animals again. Noah gets drunk. One of his sons sees him drunk and naked. Noah curses that son's son, forcing him to become a slave all his life. This is God's righteous man?Genesis 10:1-10:32 List of Noah's descendentsGenesis 11:1-11:5 Mankind has one language and begins to build the tower of BabelGenesis 11:6-11:9 God confounds mankind's language so we cannot understand one another. That's nice of himGenesis 11:10-11:32 List of Shem's descendentsGenesis 12:1-12:10 Abram travels to EgyptGenesis 12:11-12:20 Abram lies to the Egyptians that his wife, Sarai, is actually his sister so that they won't kill him and keep her. Pharoah takes Sarai into his harem. God sends a plague to Egypt. Pharoah exiles Abram.Genesis 13:1-13:13 Abram and his family. His herdsmen squabble with the herdsmen of his nephew, Lot. They go their seperate ways. Lot heads towards Sodom.Genesis 13:14-13:18 God gives Abram some land.Genesis 14:1-14:12 There is war between nine nations, five on one side, 4 on other. The side of Sodom and Gemorrah is defeated, Sodom is sacked and Lot is captured.Genesis 14:13-14:24 Abram's armies rescue Lot and return Sodom's propertyGenesis 15:1-15:21 As a reward, God promises Abram a son and heir and the land of CanaanGenesis 16:1-16:3 Abram's wife, Sarai, is barren so she tells him to impregnate her Egyptian slave, Hagar. Abram does so. Hagar despises SaraiGenesis 16:5-16:6 At Abram's prompting, Sarai wife deals harshly with Hagar for despising her. Hagar flees.Genesis 16:7-16:16 God tells Hagar that she will have a son, Ishmael, and too many descendents to count.Genesis 17:1-18:15 God goes to Abram and Sarai and renames them Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Ishmael are circumcised, as are all Abraham's men, including slaves. God tells Abraham and Sarah they will have a child, despite being old.Read this next story carefully- you quoted Genesis 19:17.Genesis 18:16-18:22 God tells Abraham that he is going to destroy Sodom and GemorrahGenesis 18:23-18:32 Abraham asks God if he is going to kill everyone there, including the righteous. God replies that if he finds at least 10 righteous men, he will spare the whole cityGenesis 19:1-19:3 God sends angels to Sodom and Lot persuades them to go to his house where Lot makes them foodGenesis 19:4-19:5 All the men of Sodom surround Lot's house and demand to rape the angelsGenesis 19:6-19:8 Lot confronts the mob. Lot says to the mob "Do not rape the angels, I have here my virgin daughters - rape them instead". ughGenesis 19:9 The mob tries to break the door downGenesis 19:10-19:11 The angels blind the people at the front of the mobGenesis 19:12-19:13 The angels tell Lot to leave with his family as they are going to destroy the city.Genesis 19:14 Lot tells his family they have to leaveGenesis 19:15-19:16 The Angels tell Lot to leave. After Lot hesitates, they take him and his family out of the cityGenesis 19:17-19:23 The Angels say run for your life and don't look back. Lot and his family go to the town of ZoarGenesis 19:24-19:25 God destroys Sodom and Gomorroh with fire and brimstone.Genesis 19:26 Lot's wife looks back. God turns her into a pillar of saltGenesis 19:27-19:29 Abraham sees that Sodom and Gomorroh are destroyedGenesis 19:30-19:39 Lot's daughters get him drunk and have sex with him. They get pregnant and have his children.It goes on and on, Abraham reveals his marriage is incestuous, God seals up the wombs of the women of Abimelech etc. etc. Read the Old Testament. Really read it, critically, questioningly. The content, and the morality of these stories are awful, just awful

[Zealous Donkey 0]

That's the thing. I was very careful not to take examples out of context. I carefully read the start of the bible.

I'm sorry my friend but you really failed in this area. Becuase you have completely taken all of these out of context. There are much better examples you could use to make a better case.

[crowTrobot 2]

I'm sorry my friend but you really failed in this area. Becuase you have completely taken all of these out of context.

he listed every verse. do you even know what out of context means?the only reason reason you think anything is out of context is because you and others are trying to rationalize the morality and logic of god's actions by MAKING UP YOUR OWN CONTEXT THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. i can rationalize the morality or logic of any action if i surround it with a fictional context. what's the point?

[Mattnxtc 0]

genesis is fable, matt. whatever you think of the historical accuracy of the NT, surely you're smart enough to accept that by now.

You can believe its a fable thats great...but if it isnt a fable then my point is to show that the "cruel" God that people seek isnt there

[brvheart 1,752]

he listed every verse. do you even know what out of context means?the only reason reason you think anything is out of context is because you and others are trying to rationalize the morality and logic of god's actions by MAKING UP YOUR OWN CONTEXT THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. i can rationalize the morality or logic of any action if i surround it with a fictional context. what's the point?

Crow, please explain what immoral things God did in any verses listed?

[crowTrobot 2]

You can believe its a fable thats great...but if it isnt a fable then my point is to show that the "cruel" God that people seek isnt there

yes. you made up a fictional context for god's actions, which was irrelevant anyway since it didn't make sense.

Crow, please explain what immoral things God did in any verses listed?

i would think murdering every person as well as every other living thing on earth is about as immoral as you can get : )

[Mattnxtc 0]

yes. you made up a fictional context for god's actions, which was irrelevant anyway since it didn't make sense.

fictional context? I went with exactly what the bible says nothing more nothing less

[crowTrobot 2]

fictional context? I went with exactly what the bible says nothing more nothing less

explain how and where the bible says god gave any individual a chance pre-flood? obviously your context of fair warning/chance is self-added - not even implied in the bible. anyway, logic dictates that if god offered any such kind of a "fair" chance there would not be only 1 man on earth that would take it. to think that is just as ludicrous as the flood story itself.and of course it should go without saying that the biblical flood story not only is refuted beyond all question by modern science, but is also a near exact clone of a sumerian myth that had nothing to do with the christian god and pre-dated the timing of the supposed biblical flood by hundreds if not thousands of years.

[brvheart 1,752]

yes. you made up a fictional context for god's actions, which was irrelevant anyway since it didn't make sense.i would think murdering every person as well as every other living thing on earth is about as immoral as you can get : )

It was the people that were being immoral. Of course we probably agree on capital punishment as well, which is what this particular debate will turn in to. Saddam deserves to be killed. He tortured, raped, and murder many people... so he deserves death. Likewise, the people of Earth ignored God and rebelled against him... so they also deserved death.

explain how and where the bible says god gave any individual a chance pre-flood? obviously your context of fair warning/chance is self-added - not even implied in the bible. anyway, logic dictates that if god offered any such kind of a "fair" chance there would not be only 1 man on earth that would take it. to think that is just as ludicrous as the flood story itself.and of course it should go without saying that the biblical flood story not only is refuted beyond all question by modern science, but is also a near exact clone of a sumerian myth that had nothing to do with the christian god and pre-dated the timing of the supposed biblical flood by hundreds if not thousands of years.

The Bible clearly shows that people knew what God expected. See: Cain kills Abel. The people moved farther and farther from God and his requirements, and so he justly killed them.

[crowTrobot 2]

It was the people that were being immoral. Of course we probably agree on capital punishment as well, which is what this particular debate will turn in to. Saddam deserves to be killed. He tortured, raped, and murder many people... so he deserves death. Likewise, the people of Earth ignored God and rebelled against him... so they also deserved death.

has nothing to do with capital punishment, since if all of humanity turned away from god, it is logically god's fault. there is no crime involved.

The Bible clearly shows that people knew what God expected. See: Cain kills Abel. The people moved farther and farther from God and his requirements, and so he justly killed them.

that's a stretch linking god punishing cain to knowledge of god's requirements for all of humanity.

[Mattnxtc 0]

has nothing to do with capital punishment, since if all of humanity turned away from god, it is logically god's fault. there is no crime involved.

I really love this reasoning...B/c man turned away it must be God's fault...So b/c students hate their teachers for giving them homework it must be the teachers fault...Please..this is just bad crow..i know u can do better than this

[crowTrobot 2]

I really love this reasoning...B/c man turned away it must be God's fault...So b/c students hate their teachers for giving them homework it must be the teachers fault...Please..this is just bad crow..i know u can do better than this

it is not the fault of each individual student if a teacher's entire class fails. if the entire class fails the teacher isn't doing his job.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

I'm sorry my friend but you really failed in this area. Becuase you have completely taken all of these out of context. There are much better examples you could use to make a better case.

I listed the every single verse at the start of the Bible! Every single one! How can that possibly be out of context?I know I could have used much better examples (the OT is that nasty) but I chose the start precisely so I could put it in its correct context.