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bad call?


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#1 Mattnxtc

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:42 PM

1/2 10 max...about 8 playingI am in the bb with 10 9 offsuit...there was one caller then an extremely loose player raised from mp...now he was raising just about every hand...2 other callers and it gets back to me..now at this time the pot is at around 8-9-1 so its a pretty easy call right? 10 9 isnt a big hand but if it hits its a big payoff?
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#2 MrNiceGuy

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:45 PM

Mattnxtc said:

its a pretty easy call

Then you go to da box for 2 minutes by yourself, you feel shame... then you get free.

#3 Mattnxtc

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:47 PM

thought so...just to gloat..that hand lead to a 52 dollar pot that went my way...and i ended the 20 minutes the table lasted up 54 bucks...one of the biggest rushes ive been on ever
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#4 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:47 PM

uh, what?why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.aseem
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#5 Mattnxtc

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:49 PM

u wouldnt defend getting 8.5-1 to call? why wouldnt mp raising standards come into play...if i feel that i may have a better hand then him isnt it a good call? i watched him cap with jack high a few hands earlier so i didnt respect any raise he had and nobody else did either..when i broke him he capped with ace high and no draws
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#6 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:53 PM

no, i wouldn't defend getting 8.5-to-1.your hand sucks multiway. if he was raising and it was heads-up, i would definitely defend.mp's raising standards become irrelevant because he could turn his cards face up and show 7-2 offsuit and you still can't profitably play 10-9 offsuit out of position against three OTHER hands in a big, multiway pot.you should even be folding weak offsuit hands like K-J and A-10 and Q-J and worse. why would you even consider calling with 10-9 offsuit?just out of curiousity, have you read SSHE? (not meant to be condescending at all, of course)aseem
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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:54 PM

akishore said:

uh, what?why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.aseem
youre right thats irrelavantthe important thing is your 8.5-1 pot oddsIll call this all day looking for a good flop, anything less than 2 pair on the flop and Ill fold easily

#8 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:55 PM

by the way, when you're up against a maniac, you don't loosen up your standards that far. the best you do is loosen up them up on your RERAISES, not your calls.you want to isolate the maniac and make money off him postflop. you also want to have POSITION on him, that's key. you're not isolating him here, so playing a bad hand at all does no good, and you don't have position on him.the biggest issue, though, is that your weak offsuit hand with little top pair value SUCKS multiway!aseem
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#9 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:58 PM

right, i must be in another universe.directly from SSHE.tight gamesbig blindagainst a raiseplay: same hands that you would play from late position for one bet, except remove the weak offsut hands AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT, and JT...loose gamesbig blindagainst a raiseplay: same hands that you would play from late position for one bet, except remove the weak offsuit hands AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT and JT...and might i add, T9o is playable in late position for one bet in neither game.wow, i don't think i have anything more to add to this thread. i think i'm losing my mind when everyone is agreeing that this is an easy preflop call.aseem
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#10 Mattnxtc

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 10:58 PM

akishore said:

no, i wouldn't defend getting 8.5-to-1.your hand sucks multiway. if he was raising and it was heads-up, i would definitely defend.mp's raising standards become irrelevant because he could turn his cards face up and show 7-2 offsuit and you still can't profitably play 10-9 offsuit out of position against three OTHER hands in a big, multiway pot.you should even be folding weak offsuit hands like K-J and A-10 and Q-J and worse. why would you even consider calling with 10-9 offsuit?just out of curiousity, have you read SSHE? (not meant to be condescending at all, of course)aseem
ive read it several times and know the general hand requirements..but as he states..sometimes u gotta vary from it as needed. I didnt feel that with the pot odds what they were against a guy who was clearly raising just to raise that the hand requirements were as necessary. my only point about the mp is that nobody respected any raise he made...so everybody would be callin with less than top hands...if anybody had a top hand they would 3 bet...none did so i felt alright to call with the odds i had...if i hit the flop im gonna take a huge pot down...if i miss im only down 2...seems almost automatic with a 109
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#11 MrNiceGuy

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:00 PM

akishore said:

uh, what?why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.aseem
I'm defending getting 9.5-1 (assuming UTG calls) because I'll flop two pair or better 4.8% of the time with good implied odds, and I'll flop a 2-way straight draw over 10% of the time as well. Not to mention that top pair might be good here.
Then you go to da box for 2 minutes by yourself, you feel shame... then you get free.

#12 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:07 PM

so where exactly are you drawing the line? or are you just going by "feel" and figuring no one has a top hand and you have a 19-to-1 chance of flopping two pair with any two cards?are you defending with 72o here?how about 65o?how about A2o?how about 32s?how about 85o?just wondering what your guidelines are, or if it was just a spur-of-the-moment feeling that your pot odds are good and you can win a big pot if you flop something nice.aseem
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#13 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:08 PM

MrNiceGuy said:

akishore said:

uh, what?why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.aseem
I'm defending getting 9.5-1 (assuming UTG calls) because I'll flop two pair or better 4.8% of the time with good implied odds, and I'll flop a 2-way straight draw over 10% of the time as well. Not to mention that top pair might be good here.
1. you can flop two pair and still lose.2. you can flop an open-ended straight draw and miss, or hit and still lose.3. you can flop top pair and still lose.i think these percentages are grossly inaccurate and irrelevant when it comes to importance of defending.aseem
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#14 Mattnxtc

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:13 PM

sarcasim really isnt needed. U know i wouldnt make a call with any of those and nobody else here would either...the only point im tryin to make is that i felt 109 is a borderline hand...if it was suited there wouldnt even be an issue i dont think...sorry that i dont play exactly by the book...910 would be about the absolute lowest i would go in terms of making a call of a raise. the 9 is most certainly live with the 10 likely being live also...910 gives me plenty of drawing opportunities. i think its a much tougher decision post flop as to how to continue then on whether to call with the huge odds preflop
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#15 brando

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:19 PM

I know this hand is os and out of position, but isn't that why you play these hands b/c the pot is multiway? I"m really confused or really tired right now.

#16 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:22 PM

i wasn't being sarcastic at all. i really was wondering where you drew the line.playing 10-9 offsuit there isn't much better than playing 8-7 offsuit, in all honesty. it IS better, of course, but not by mouch.and don't mention how "live" your cards might be. that's totally inaccurate and false and irrelevant here. you only mention that when you KNOW you're up against big cards. you have NO such information here, and that's just speculation that's intended to make you feel better about what you want to do.offsuit connectors are really way overrated. they suck pretty bad.well, i don't know what else to say. i can pretty confidently say that calling with 10-9 offsuit there is -EV, but i have no way to prove that, so i'll let it be.aseem
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#17 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:23 PM

brando said:

I know this hand is os and out of position, but isn't that why you play these hands b/c the pot is multiway? I"m really confused or really tired right now.
no.offsuit hands suck multiway.like, really suck.being out of position sucks with hands that tend to be drawing hands postflop, also. not as bad as being offsuit, but it still sucks. (less information available for you to push equity edges, you can't take free cards, etc.)to use kdawg's line, this hand just blows everywhich way.aseemEDIT: also add that not only do offsuit hands suck multiway, hands with weak top pair value also suck multiway. he has no suitedness, weak top pair value, and connectedness (preflop dimensions). he also has no position and no informational advantage (postflop qualities). this hand really just... sucks.
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#18 brando

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:27 PM

lol @ aki, you've had some hostility lately :club: I wouldn't call here personally, probably b/c my play is weak out of the blinds.New situation:You're on the button, 5 limpers to you and you have 9Tos, do you fold there?

#19 akishore

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:28 PM

sorry if i'm seeming hostile.yes, i still fold 10-9 offsuit on the button after five limpers.aseem
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#20 Guest_XXEddie_*

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:28 PM

akishore said:

brando said:

I know this hand is os and out of position, but isn't that why you play these hands b/c the pot is multiway? I"m really confused or really tired right now.
no.offsuit hands suck multiway.like, really suck.being out of position sucks with hands that tend to be drawing hands postflop, also. not as bad as being offsuit, but it still sucks. (less information available for you to push equity edges, you can't take free cards, etc.)to use kdawg's line, this hand just blows everywhich way.aseemEDIT: also add that not only do offsuit hands suck multiway, hands with weak top pair value also suck multiway. he has no suitedness, weak top pair value, and connectedness (preflop dimensions). he also has no position and no informational advantage (postflop qualities). this hand really just... sucks.
why do you keep bringing up TP value??who plays T9 or any other connected/suited hand like T9 for top pair?




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