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pocket aces vs a huge all-in (nl tournament)


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This hand is one that I encountered while playing in a NL Hold'em tournament over the weekend. This hand still gives me brain cramps when I think about it, and I could really use some input.Live NL Hold'em tournament. Buy-in: $50 Prize pool: $2050Level 2: blinds 50/100I had been playing super-aggressive, like I always do at the beginning of tournaments where the blinds go up fast, so my table image was loose/aggressive.My opponent, (we'll call him "Bob") was an absolute fish. He is always either all-in or folding. If he hits any hand top pair or better, he's pushing all-in. 2 hands ago, he hit the sucker straight on the river and was dumb enough to push all-in with a paired board, potential flush draw, and potential for higher straights, and then showed it. On the first hand, he saw pocket kings under the gun and pushed all-in immediately, then showed it and complained when everybody folded. He is what I like to call "tight-aggressive squared" after the flop. His pre-flop play is fairly standard, though. He'll limp in with just about anything, but he won't call a raise without a pocket pair or 2 face cards in his hand. If he has aces, kings, or queens, he's all-in before the flop no matter what.***PRE-FLOP***cheetaking is in 3rd position with 5425 chipsBob is on the button with 4550 chipsHole cards dealt to cheetaking: AACheetaking raises to 400 (a standard raise for this table)Bob is the only callerPot size: 950***THE FLOP***Q:heart: J:spade: 6:diamond:I had been playing very aggressively for this whole tournament, so I bet and hoped that Bob had hit top pair and was going to try to take a stand. Unfortunately, I was too right in this case. He took a huge stand.Cheetaking bets 600Bob raises to 4150 and is all-inCheetaking ?The pot size is 2150, and I need to put in over 3500 chips to call. If I lose, my tournament is pretty much over. If I win, I become the monster chip leader.What do you guys make of this? Any and all suggestions are welcome.

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we really need to know bob's preflop standards. any analysis of this hand is meaningless without it.aseem

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do you have any memories of what he reraises preflop? or is it JUST aces/kings/queens? do you remember whether he played just any two face cards or if he folded the worst like JT/QT/QJ/etc.?you really need to know all of this. this is what hand reading is about.you start with his widest range and keep narrowing it down. this is what you should be doing every hand you're in at the table (unless you have the nuts and it doesn't matter!)--right away when bob calls preflop, you think "okay, i know he reraises AK but folds QJ or worse here, he reraises QQ but cold-calls JJ or worse here." etc.aseem

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you've more or less eliminated QQ and probably JJ. so you are losing to QJ and beating KQ, AQ, Q10, JA, JK, etc. wouldn't necessary push all in with those last 2, but maybe he deos with K10.seems like the range of hands he could have, given your (probably too) specific reads is AQ, KQ, Q10 and maybe K10. for all we know, a worse queen is even possible, since you said he's playing a lot. and for the record, he is more LAG than TAG. so call. this screams of an overbet anyways.it sounds suspicious though when your read on a player is that he'll go all-in with top pair, etc and that situation comes up. you might be conforming your read to the current situation instead of considering all the possible scenarios given all your current information.and feel free to correct me, but isn't tournament strategy usually to play tight early on, then get aggressive later into the tournament? you seem to do the opposite.daniel

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Yes, standard strategy is to play tight. But when the blinds are doubling every 20 minutes and everyone else is playing even tighter, you get blinded out fast. And when you do get a hand, nobody will call because your table image is tight. SO, I play super-aggressive in the beginning while everyone else is playing tight, so that I can get a quick chip lead and set up a loose table image so that I will get action when I finally do get a hand. It seems to work, so I'm not really worried about it. The only apparent problem is that I tend to get myself into tough situations like this when somebody finally decides to take a stand.Anyway, Here is a mini-update on what I was thinking during the hand. I thought hard about how he had played, and I narrowed him down to a range of 4 hands. 2 beat me, and 2 didn't.Hands he could make the play with that beat me:66QJHands that he would make the play with that don't beat me:KQAQ (unlikely, though, since I already had 2 of the aces and he probably would have re-raised pre-flop with this hand.)KQ seemed like the only thing that I could really put him on that didn't beat me.Bob wasn't giving away any information, though. Unfortunately, however bad his play was, the one good thing that he had was a poker face. He sat there and stared at me for a good 90 seconds without giving up any information. I was getting desperate, and decided to try and weed it out of him by talking."I know what you have... Queen/Jack, right?" He didn't even flinch. He just kept staring at me and didn't say a word. And I kept thinking and thinking, still not sure about what to do.

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Since it doesn't look like there are any more replies coming, I'll just post the results and get it over with.Finally, the table called time on me, and I took one last analysis. Did he have trip 6's, 2 pair, or just a pair of queens?Finally, my curiosity got the best of me. I had to call and find out.I called, and Bob flipped over K/Q. I screamed "yes!" and pumped my fists in the air. I had made the right call.Unfortunately, the excitement was short lived. The turn was a king. And when I failed to catch a 6, J, 10, or A on the river, I took a huge blow and was eliminated from the tournament 5 hands later when I got caught trying to steal the blinds.

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If he hadnt outdrawn you you never would have posted this hand, which makes it results oriented, which makes it useless. There's a bad beat forum I suggest using it.

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If he hadnt outdrawn you you never would have posted this hand, which makes it results oriented, which makes it useless. There's a bad beat forum I suggest using it.
If it was useless, why didn't you post that right after his original post, before you knew he was outdrawn?Apparently the decent conversation and interesting thoughts in this thread have now become 'useless' because we just found out he got sucked out on? Makes sense to me.Mark
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If he hadnt outdrawn you you never would have posted this hand, which makes it results oriented, which makes it useless. There's a bad beat forum I suggest using it.
If it was useless, why didn't you post that right after his original post, before you knew he was outdrawn?Apparently the decent conversation and interesting thoughts in this thread have now become 'useless' because we just found out he got sucked out on? Makes sense to me.Mark
Either that or I wasn't around a computer the past few days.I'll take the second one. Thanks.I do like how you used the adjectives "decent" and "interesting" to really drive the point home, though.
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Either that or I wasn't around a computer the past few days.I'll take the second one. Thanks.
Ahh, so you would have been able to read his mind and know he was sucked out on then before he even told us eh? You must crush the tables...For what its worth, here is the discussion a friend and I just had regarding this 'useless' post: (IM names have been changed to protect the innocent... :club:[09:40] friend: the spirit of this guys post clearly isn't[09:40] friend: look at this shitty beat i took[09:40] friend: oh poor me[09:40] friend: it's, i didn't know what to do in this situation[09:40] friend: here's my analysis of it[09:40] friend: what should i have done[09:40] friend: and what was i missing[09:40] Me: i know, not at all. I thought it was a totally reasonable post. I've got aces. Should I fold? Its a decision we all face all the time. [09:41] friend: and you are right[09:41] friend: akishore made a good point about reading hands[09:41] friend: and knowing your player[09:41] friend: which is what this really comes down to[09:41] Me: yup[09:41] friend: and the guy read him properly[09:41] friend: he wanted the guy to take a stand with top pair[09:42] friend: the guy took it[09:42] friend: i'm not sure why he waited so long to call[09:42] friend: based on his read[09:42] friend: i think i would have called right away[09:42] friend: it's very likely the guy has top pair[09:42] friend: but then[09:42] friend: i'm one to discuss the hand and actual poker[09:42] friend: i don't belong on fcp[09:43] friend: because my thoughts go to poker 1st[09:43] friend: everyone else's are insults first[09:43] friend: and poker a distant 2nd[09:43] friend: i'm generalizing though[09:43] Me: ditto, thats exactly what he was playing for. I actually had the exact same scenario come up with aces after getting a huge bluff shown down[09:43] Me: guy caught top pair with KQ, I bet huge on flop, he pushed all in, I called immediately because thats the play I was expecting.[09:44] Me: and he sucked out in me with 2 pair same as this post. Which is why it annoys me that knowing that somehow makes that one dude think its pointless to post. Its a decision that comes up often, its good to discuss, regardless of the suck out at the end. [09:44] friend: exactly[09:44] friend: the guy comes right out and says[09:44] friend: he wants his opponent to take a stand with top pair[09:44] friend: it's a good discussion[09:44] friend: i personally think you call there[09:45] friend: it makes you a force in the tournament if you are right[09:45] friend: and it's 70/30 at least that you are[09:45] Me: yup[09:45] friend: if the guy got lucky and flopped two pair[09:45] friend: well, move on to the next tournament[09:45] Me: with the table image scenario set up as it was in the post.[10:00] friend: see what just happened[10:00] friend: you and i discussed an actual poker hand[10:00] friend: if this happened on fcp[10:00] friend: i'd read it every day[10:00] Me: hehe, yup[10:00] friend: instead[10:00] friend: i'll just talk to youFlame away!Mark
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Either that or I wasn't around a computer the past few days.I'll take the second one. Thanks.
Ahh, so you would have been able to read his mind and know he was sucked out on then before he even told us eh? You must crush the tables...For what its worth, here is the discussion a friend and I just had regarding this 'useless' post: (IM names have been changed to protect the innocent... :club:[09:40] friend: the spirit of this guys post clearly isn't[09:40] friend: look at this censored beat i took[09:40] friend: oh poor me[09:40] friend: it's, i didn't know what to do in this situation[09:40] friend: here's my analysis of it[09:40] friend: what should i have done[09:40] friend: and what was i missing[09:40] Me: i know, not at all. I thought it was a totally reasonable post. I've got aces. Should I fold? Its a decision we all face all the time. [09:41] friend: and you are right[09:41] friend: akishore made a good point about reading hands[09:41] friend: and knowing your player[09:41] friend: which is what this really comes down to[09:41] Me: yup[09:41] friend: and the guy read him properly[09:41] friend: he wanted the guy to take a stand with top pair[09:42] friend: the guy took it[09:42] friend: i'm not sure why he waited so long to call[09:42] friend: based on his read[09:42] friend: i think i would have called right away[09:42] friend: it's very likely the guy has top pair[09:42] friend: but then[09:42] friend: i'm one to discuss the hand and actual poker[09:42] friend: i don't belong on fcp[09:43] friend: because my thoughts go to poker 1st[09:43] friend: everyone else's are insults first[09:43] friend: and poker a distant 2nd[09:43] friend: i'm generalizing though[09:43] Me: ditto, thats exactly what he was playing for. I actually had the exact same scenario come up with aces after getting a huge bluff shown down[09:43] Me: guy caught top pair with KQ, I bet huge on flop, he pushed all in, I called immediately because thats the play I was expecting.[09:44] Me: and he sucked out in me with 2 pair same as this post. Which is why it annoys me that knowing that somehow makes that one dude think its pointless to post. Its a decision that comes up often, its good to discuss, regardless of the suck out at the end. [09:44] friend: exactly[09:44] friend: the guy comes right out and says[09:44] friend: he wants his opponent to take a stand with top pair[09:44] friend: it's a good discussion[09:44] friend: i personally think you call there[09:45] friend: it makes you a force in the tournament if you are right[09:45] friend: and it's 70/30 at least that you are[09:45] Me: yup[09:45] friend: if the guy got lucky and flopped two pair[09:45] friend: well, move on to the next tournament[09:45] Me: with the table image scenario set up as it was in the post.[10:00] friend: see what just happened[10:00] friend: you and i discussed an actual poker hand[10:00] friend: if this happened on fcp[10:00] friend: i'd read it every day[10:00] Me: hehe, yup[10:00] friend: instead[10:00] friend: i'll just talk to youFlame away!Mark
So the summary is:OP plays AA, is forced to call a big bet on a board of QJ6 rainbow, where he is clearly ahead more often than not. We then find out that the person he is playing against is horrible who pushed all in on a scary board with the sucker straight. This is an easy call, I'm sorry if some of you don't agree. OP played it correctly and he knew he did. He made the right call and for some reason posted the hand anyways. And why did he post it? Because he got sucked out on. Like I said, if his hand held up, this topic wouldn't exist. If we all posted every hand we played correctly and got sucked out on, strategy would be filled with about 99% USELESS posts. I say useless because it's result oriented, which is clearly obvious.
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I don't give a crap about the bad beat at the end. It happens, and I could care less. What I cared about is that I had a very tough decision to make, and it took over 2 minutes to decide. I wanted to see what everyone else would have done in my place.I'm not here asking for sympathy for a bad beat... I wanted to see what everyone else was thinking. It's simple enough. If I wanted to complain about a bad beat, I would have posted it elsewhere and asked for sympathy in the topic. The end of the hand was just there FYI. The only thing I care about here is that he was holding KQ.Besides, I have already posted 2 other hands in which I made the right decision in the end. I don't just post when I get out-played. I post whenever I have to make a tough decision and want to see what everyone else would have done. Is there something wrong with that? After all, it seems like I am the only person who does it that way. Every other post seems to be when somebody gets out-played and are looking for advice on how to play the hand better.This forum section is to discuss Texas Hold'em strategy, not just to ask for playing advice.

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OP played it correctly and he knew he did. He made the right call and for some reason posted the hand anyways. And why did he post it? Because he got sucked out on. Like I said, if his hand held up, this topic wouldn't exist. If we all posted every hand we played correctly and got sucked out on, strategy would be filled with about 99% USELESS posts. I say useless because it's result oriented, which is clearly obvious.
I don't disagree with your judgement that this is an easy call. But I can't pretend to know the OPs intent on posting. From what it looks like to me, the guy is just looking for some input. Based on the read of the situation he gave, I think an experienced player views this as an easy call. This is the exact situation you wanted and it played out perfectly on the flop.But if you aren't Daniel Negreanu super stud poker player like everyone here acts like they are, I think you dont exactly trust your reads unconditionally and like to get some feedback on what everyone thinks the 'correct' play is. It isn't like this always is an easy call, or there would be a rule that says: Never fold aces on the flop for any reason.Just in this situation, I agree this is an easy call, which to make makes this thread and this discussion interesting because there is something to take away from it, regardless of the OPs original intent in posting: If you have a read on a player and situation, don't be afraid to risk your stack, as that is what makes a winning poker player, having the balls to follow up on a marginal hand that you believe to be ahead. Anyone can call with the nuts.If the OP posts a hand where he flops quads, a guy goes all in and he asks for advice, then I'll flame him :club: Enjoyed this thread, it fostered some good discussion I think, at least for me.Mark
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This is an easy call, I'm sorry if some of you don't agree. No it's not.Not close.good luck.
Anyone else remember when Smash told people why they are wrong instead of just telling them they are wrong? :club: Do you see why?
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Well, look, obviously it's not an EASY call for all of your chips on this flop.JJ/QQ/66 have you crushed to 2.5 outs. You're way behind JQ. You're way ahead of some other hands that might move in here. The question is do you really want to put all your chips in with two outs against some you can outplay the vast majority of the time? Are you certain he moves in here with less than two pair enough to call?I might call, but it's definately not easy. If you think it is, you're probably not making many final tables.good luck.

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The question is do you really want to put all your chips in with two outs against some you can outplay the vast majority of the time? Are you certain he moves in here with less than two pair enough to call?I might call, but it's definately not easy. If you think it is, you're probably not making many final tables.good luck.
I'm guessing you would call, just based on the fact that this seems to be exactly the 'outplaying' situation that we are looking for against this player. I would never advocate an 'always call' philosophy with just an overpair, or with anything other than the nuts for that matter. But based ONLY on what the OP has described of this player, the hand, and the situation, I find this call easy-ish to make. You have set a lesser player up to make a huge mistake. He seems to have likely made one.Also to consider, would a poor player put 5X the pot in with QQ, JJ, or 66? Unlikely, although really bad players do get jumpy with their trips now and then. I fear QJ here, and if I set someone up, they bite, and then the flop smacks them upside the head, so be it.Mark
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Also to consider, would a poor player put 5X the pot in with QQ, JJ, or 66? Yes.f I set someone up, they bite, and then the flop smacks them upside the head, so be it. It's not a cash game.good luck.

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This would have been an easy call if it was a micro-NL tournament like on PokerStars, but not in a live game where there is $2050 on the line and it's getting close to the final table.

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