31 replies to this topic

[MattD]

Hey, i Played this hand last night, im convinced it was the correct play, but i'd like to get some input from others.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP1 ($64.74)MP2 ($31.97)MP3 ($24.70)CO ($49.51)Hero (Button) ($29.33)SB ($62.92)BB ($87.29)UTG ($64.45)UTG+1 ($50)Preflop: Hero is Button with A , J 1 fold, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, MP3 bets $0.75, CO calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds, UTG+1 (poster) calls $0.50Flop: ($3.80) 10 , 9 , Q (4 players)UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets $3.25, CO raises to $10, Hero raises to $28.53 (All-In), 1 fold, MP3 calls $20.65 (All-In), CO calls $18.53Turn: ($84.76) 3 (3 players, 2 all-in)River: ($84.76) A (3 players, 2 all-in)Total pot: $84.76 | Rake: $2

[KingJames]

Yeah, it's high variance but likely fine.MP likely has AA/KKCO probably has a set or straight; 99/TT and KJsvs those ranges you have 38% equity, so I play it the same

[MattD]

Thanks for the input, hopefully next time it'll pay off.So Pushing was the correct play, or just to Call? as i expect the result would have ended up the same anyway?For Those that want to know the players has: MP3: KsJsCO: QcQs

[QED]

I don't think you can call there, you want to get your money in while you have 2 cards still to come (so more equity).

[rrumsey]

gh

[Igotlucky24]

So you pushed all your money into a pot to defend .75 cents on a draw. Give em credit for the nuts and pound them later. I think you may have misplayed it.

[Ninja Ace]

Igotlucky24, on Saturday, July 16th, 2011, 1:31 AM, said:

So you pushed all your money into a pot to defend .75 cents on a draw. Give em credit for the nuts and pound them later. I think you may have misplayed it.

And you're very wrongEZ ship there

[Ninja Ace]

Mattman3007, on Thursday, May 26th, 2011, 5:34 AM, said:

Thanks for the input, hopefully next time it'll pay off.So Pushing was the correct play, or just to Call? as i expect the result would have ended up the same anyway?For Those that want to know the players has: MP3: KsJsCO: QcQs

Better not to post results until after you get feedback. Don't make opinions bias

[Igotlucky24]

Ninja Ace, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 6:36 PM, said:

And you're very wrongEZ ship there

Try playing higher limits and justifying a push in deep stack play. Would you really push 3k into the pot there in a 10-20? If so where do you play. I'd love to be in that game!

[KingJames]

Igotlucky24, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 9:39 PM, said:

Try playing higher limits and justifying a push in deep stack play. Would you really push 3k into the pot there in a 10-20? If so where do you play. I'd love to be in that game!

Stakes rarely matter. It's going to be villain dependent. If you think that your opponent will get it in with a range wide enough that your draw is profitable, then it doesn't matter the exact dollar amount.And generally, the higher stakes games are more aggressive (especially online) so their range will be wider (more worse flush draws perhaps ) and it'll be fine to get a combo draw in there.No one can have KJhh or J8hh so even vs the top of their ranges we have flush outs and straight outs... And vs sets we aren't in terrible shape. And we're really not that deep.And then we assume we are playing properly bank-rolled for the limit and it's a fine/standard play.

[Igotlucky24]

KingJames, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 10:56 PM, said:

Stakes rarely matter. It's going to be villain dependent. If you think that your opponent will get it in with a range wide enough that your draw is profitable, then it doesn't matter the exact dollar amount.And generally, the higher stakes games are more aggressive (especially online) so their range will be wider (more worse flush draws perhaps ) and it'll be fine to get a combo draw in there.No one can have KJhh or J8hh so even vs the top of their ranges we have flush outs and straight outs... And vs sets we aren't in terrible shape. And we're really not that deep.And then we assume we are playing properly bank-rolled for the limit and it's a fine/standard play.

The simple fact of the matter is you are getting your money in bad and losing everytime you push in that spot against the two "worst case senario hands" And if you decide to put someone on a range that includes smaller flush draws, how do you not put a kj in their hand? It was only 3 times the blind and NOT deep stacked. I mean KJ makes sense to someone who plays no limit. They gin and your drawing to 9 outs. For all your money. Its a losing play and in the long run will suck up your bankroll.

[KingJames]

Igotlucky24, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 11:33 PM, said:

The simple fact of the matter is you are getting your money in bad and losing everytime you push in that spot against the two "worst case senario hands" And if you decide to put someone on a range that includes smaller flush draws, how do you not put a kj in their hand? It was only 3 times the blind and NOT deep stacked. I mean KJ makes sense to someone who plays no limit. They gin and your drawing to 9 outs. For all your money. Its a losing play and in the long run will suck up your bankroll.

How do you know that it is a losing play? Not rhetorical, I'd like to know.Vs KJ we have 43% equityVs QQ we have 40% equityvs KThh we have 56% equityvs JJ we have 58% equityvs J8 we have 51% equityWe also have a smaaaaaaaal amount of fold equity. MP3 will be c-betting air some time and if we ever find co raise/folding, binkIn total vs a decent range we have 49% equityvs both of them... 40% equity and we're putting in 33% of teh monies I took AA and KK out of the COs range bc he likely doesn't flat them pre-flop. Not QQ much either tho either... and that's the hand we do worst againstSo if they ever fold we're good.

[KingJames]

And vs their exact hand of QQ and KsJs we have 31% equity and with the dead money and any (even like <5% fold eq) it's prob neutral ev to stick it in and it just comes down to your tolerance for variance

[SuperJon]

James, did you make a fake troll account to argue with to show off your knowledge of teh pokerz?

[XXEddie]

Igotlucky24, on Saturday, July 16th, 2011, 3:31 AM, said:

So you pushed all your money into a pot to defend .75 cents on a draw. Give em credit for the nuts and pound them later. I think you may have misplayed it.

Give them credit for the nuts? Because somebody raised the flop? Have you ever bet 2nd set on the flop, got raised and said, "Well, no need to defend my bet with 2nd set. I'll give them credit for the nuts and move on"? I didn't think so. Just because somebody raised the flop, doesn't mean they have the nuts. Or close to it. As James has already pointed out even if this is worse case scenario (KJ, set) it's only slightly -ev to call. You can add in the high % of the times when MP folds, somebody can have 2 pair when you have slightly more equity. The could have a hand like KThh...etc. Plus every now and then (albeit rarely) CO will fold then, voula, you just got a bunch of money without showing down

Igotlucky24, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 9:39 PM, said:

Try playing higher limits and justifying a push in deep stack play. Would you really push 3k into the pot there in a 10-20? If so where do you play. I'd love to be in that game!

1) This is not very deep stacked for a cash game. Hero is 120bb deep. Again, not super deep for cash. 2) 25nl and 10/20nl are two very different games. The players play so differently you can't honestly compare to two and still look intelligent.

Igotlucky24, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 11:33 PM, said:

The simple fact of the matter is you are getting your money in bad and losing everytime you push in that spot against the two "worst case senario hands" And if you decide to put someone on a range that includes smaller flush draws, how do you not put a kj in their hand? It was only 3 times the blind and NOT deep stacked. I mean KJ makes sense to someone who plays no limit. They gin and your drawing to 9 outs. For all your money. Its a losing play and in the long run will suck up your bankroll.

1) We're losing every time here? Weird.. I thought with OESD and NFD on a non-paired board we'd have some outs... my bad.2) Who excluded KJ from anybody's range? Just because it's in there doesn't mean it's the only possibility. 3) Wait? So now it's NOT deep stacked...?4) Learn to count outs. Against KJ with have 12. 9 hearts, 3 Ks give us a higher straight. 5) I play in Blackhawk, CO at the Ameristar somewhat often. I also play a 1/3nl game in Aurora, CO. Feel free to come play anytime.... dipshit.

[Igotlucky24]

XXEddie, on Monday, July 18th, 2011, 1:00 PM, said:

Give them credit for the nuts? Because somebody raised the flop? Have you ever bet 2nd set on the flop, got raised and said, "Well, no need to defend my bet with 2nd set. I'll give them credit for the nuts and move on"? I didn't think so. Just because somebody raised the flop, doesn't mean they have the nuts. Or close to it. As James has already pointed out even if this is worse case scenario (KJ, set) it's only slightly -ev to call. You can add in the high % of the times when MP folds, somebody can have 2 pair when you have slightly more equity. The could have a hand like KThh...etc. Plus every now and then (albeit rarely) CO will fold then, voula, you just got a bunch of money without showing down 1) This is not very deep stacked for a cash game. Hero is 120bb deep. Again, not super deep for cash. 2) 25nl and 10/20nl are two very different games. The players play so differently you can't honestly compare to two and still look intelligent. 1) We're losing every time here? Weird.. I thought with OESD and NFD on a non-paired board we'd have some outs... my bad.2) Who excluded KJ from anybody's range? Just because it's in there doesn't mean it's the only possibility. 3) Wait? So now it's NOT deep stacked...?4) Learn to count outs. Against KJ with have 12. 9 hearts, 3 Ks give us a higher straight. 5) I play in Blackhawk, CO at the Ameristar somewhat often. I also play a 1/3nl game in Aurora, CO. Feel free to come play anytime.... dipshit.

Yes I have folded 2nd set, but that was after playing pot control until the river instead of brutally shoving your chips in with a 30% chance to win against a pat hand. Part of your thought process is why I cant play 1-3 anymore. Graduate to a higher level with all that skill!... And to be fair its 11 outs.

[Ninja Ace]

Igotlucky24, on Monday, July 18th, 2011, 11:16 AM, said:

Yes I have folded 2nd set, but that was after playing pot control until the river instead of brutally shoving your chips in with a 30% chance to win against a pat hand. Part of your thought process is why I cant play 1-3 anymore. Graduate to a higher level with all that skill!... And to be fair its 11 outs.

Post less and read more. Everything James posted here about equity is about the only argument applicable. Every regular here already knows this stuff hence it's actually quite a boring auto-ship.You've managed to hit just about every logical fallacy a newbie tends to hit while still upholding an ignorant know it all attitude. Congrats. I'll see you back here later after you put your entire roll in play and bust it... on 5 separate occasions... then whine about how it was a "bad beat" by some "idiot with a draw"

[Ninja Ace]

Igotlucky24, on Monday, July 18th, 2011, 11:16 AM, said:

Yes I have folded 2nd set, but that was after playing pot control until the river

ROFL yeah rightlemme guess the though process"ZOMG I flopped a set. hehehehehehe watch me tarp this guy!""oh crap, turn brought 3 to a straight and a flush, that's ok no way he has it, i will continue to tarp!""oh shit, river brought 4 to a straight flush and there are 10 villians in the pot, i guess i make an obvious fold"*pats self on back* "Good pot control dude! I was totally pot controlling that whole time! Yeah go me I'm not results oriented at all!"

[KingJames]

SuperJon, on Monday, July 18th, 2011, 4:18 AM, said:

James, did you make a fake troll account to argue with to show off your knowledge of teh pokerz?

I have better things to do with my time. sorta not really

[XXEddie]

Igotlucky24, on Monday, July 18th, 2011, 1:16 PM, said:

Yes I have folded 2nd set, but that was after playing pot control until the river instead of brutally shoving your chips in with a 30% chance to win against a pat hand. Part of your thought process is why I cant play 1-3 anymore. Graduate to a higher level with all that skill!... And to be fair its 11 outs.

1) People that can't beat 1-3 can't beat 1-3 because they suck. I love hearing about all the people at 1/2 or 1/3 nl complain that players are sooooo bad they can't win. I must just be super lucky to consistently turned a profit. 2) Don't say 'to be fair' when you totally screwed up the outs the first time.

Ninja Ace, on Monday, July 18th, 2011, 1:43 PM, said:

ROFL yeah rightlemme guess the though process"ZOMG I flopped a set. hehehehehehe watch me tarp this guy!""oh crap, turn brought 3 to a straight and a flush, that's ok no way he has it, i will continue to tarp!""oh shit, river brought 4 to a straight flush and there are 10 villians in the pot, i guess i make an obvious fold"*pats self on back* "Good pot control dude! I was totally pot controlling that whole time! Yeah go me I'm not results oriented at all!"

Awesome. Yeah... "Pot controlling" with 2nd set on any flop besides JT9 on K96hhh is pretty bad. You have 2nd set in a live cash game. Bet/bet/bet.