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Hero has played tight. Villian is a hoosier, by the looks of it probably plays poker once a week after his child support clears his check and all the bills are paid off. He is loose passive preflop, but plays careful postflop. I haven't noticed him put his money in the pot postflop unless he's got a decent hand.Stacks: Villian- $200 Hero- $190My cards are AKPreflop: Hero raises to 10, several folds, Villian calls $10, everyone folds.Flop: Kx, 8d, 4dHero bets $16, Villian Raises to $40 Hero:

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Hero has played tight. Villian is a hoosier, by the looks of it probably plays poker once a week after his child support clears his check and all the bills are paid off. He is loose passive preflop, but plays careful postflop. I haven't noticed him put his money in the pot postflop unless he's got a decent hand.Stacks: Villian- $200 Hero- $190My cards are AKPreflop: Hero raises to 10, several folds, Villian calls $10, everyone folds.Flop: Kx, 8d, 4dHero bets $16, Villian Raises to $40 Hero:
Do you have any diamonds in your hand? would he raise a FD from position?if he is good aggro, he might be playing a draw a bit aggro. would he bet a set so strongly?you're ahead of a lot here, but i really dont think he plays KQ and KJ so aggressive. my guess is a K with a diamond draw. unless u have the K diamonds.so knowing your hand suits would help
It's 1/2 live. Shove.
such bad advicethis thinking is how you go broke and then wonder.... why am i broke?
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LOL.He's got <100 BBs and he's holding TPTK on a flop where there are a lot of draws. He didn't get raised that strongly. The guy made it 2.5x his bet. What do you propose he does? Flat call? Fold? Shoving here is right by a rather wide margin IMO.And no, this isn't how you go broke. Doing this and being wrong or unlucky when your bankroll consists of 4 buyins is how you go broke.

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Royal just called Acid_Knight broke. oO0OoO0Oo!!!!!! Burnnnn!!!
not really.mostly i was just saying, we have a lot of people post hands with TPTK shoving stacks and losing. and chalking it up to coolers.If your read on villain is, donkey/newb, no idea what hes doing. raises middle pair. I agree that TPTK is the nuts.but thats not the case here, and shouldnt be chalked up to 1/2NL, shove. I'll tell u. if you shove TPTK on me often, you're going broke often. cuz i'm not calling with worse.
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I'll tell u. if you shove TPTK on me often, you're going broke often. cuz i'm not calling with worse.
You might not be, but other people won't fold KJ on this board. Also, he could be and likely is raising a wide range of hands that include draws, made hands weaker than ours and made hands better than ours. Since we're ahead of his range, we need to reraise. Shoving is the only size that really makes sense.
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LOL.He's got <100 BBs and he's holding TPTK on a flop where there are a lot of draws. He didn't get raised that strongly. The guy made it 2.5x his bet. What do you propose he does? Flat call? Fold? Shoving here is right by a rather wide margin IMO.And no, this isn't how you go broke. Doing this and being wrong or unlucky when your bankroll consists of 4 buyins is how you go broke.
LOLyou have no info on our suit holdings, you have a villain who is supposedly "loose" preflop, but doesnt invest money postflop without a decent hand.if you chose to ignore this, and just push TPTK then fine. also he is 5bb's shy of 100. its a full stack IMO. and In my past experiences, with 1/2 and 2/5 NL live, I've ran into more trouble with TPTK post flop because i chalk it up to playing 100bb's deep. whether its my stack or my opponents. and thats bad thinking.
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You might not be, but other people won't fold KJ on this board. Also, he could be and likely is raising a wide range of hands that include draws, made hands weaker than ours and made hands better than ours. Since we're ahead of his range, we need to reraise. Shoving is the only size that really makes sense.
correct.which is why i asked OP what his suits are.bascially, our best case would be getting called by KQ off suit. then getting called by Kd,Qd where we are a slight favorite. basically a flip.then the worst is obv running into 2 pair or a set. so whats our Pstove?
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So what do you propose? Calling OOP against a range that we're ahead of, but have no idea of his actual holding and what...?Why isn't he raising KT or KJ or KQ or a flush draw here? Some people think they need to "see where they're at." Just because we're shoving, doesn't mean we expect him to call with KJ or KQ or whatever, but since his range is wider than those hands and it'll be difficult to play poker OOP here, we should just get it in now.

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So what do you propose? Calling OOP against a range that we're ahead of, but have no idea of his actual holding and what...?Why isn't he raising KT or KJ or KQ or a flush draw here? Some people think they need to "see where they're at." Just because we're shoving, doesn't mean we expect him to call with KJ or KQ or whatever, but since his range is wider than those hands and it'll be difficult to play poker OOP here, we should just get it in now.
This is probably one of the more difficult things in NL holdem. (playing a hand like this OOP) Because his range is made up of a lot of K,x suited. AK, 8,8. 4,4 maybe those K,x suited hands could be K,8s and K,4s maybe even 8,4s. He is branded as loose. I think we can get a lot more out of KQ and hands behind us by playing it passively. opposed to shoving. i think any kind of 3-bet, and villain's attempt to find out where he is at becomes successful. if you tell me its better to take this pot on the flop with a 3bet, forcing villain to fold, I can understand the line.For me it comes down to this thinking. I call the flop, reassess the turn. c/c most bets. if it checks through, I'll value bet a non-diamond river. this thinking is mostly due to the fact that, we could just shove the flop, all outcomes will remain the same if villain calls. we see a turn and river.only difference is, we're hoping to be up against a hand behind us. were as a flat call, check turn might give us the info we need to fold.say for example the turn is a complete brick 2s. and we check and villain bets 70. I'd let my hand go. There are times that maybe i was ahead, but without a good enough read telling me this guy is a donkey who overvalues K,J.. I dont think its worth the stack
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this thinking is mostly due to the fact that, we could just shove the flop, all outcomes will remain the same if villain calls. we see a turn and river.
What are you talking about, all outcomes remain the same?
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Hero has played tight. Villian is a hoosier, by the looks of it probably plays poker once a week after his child support clears his check and all the bills are paid off. He is loose passive preflop, but plays careful postflop. I haven't noticed him put his money in the pot postflop unless he's got a decent hand.Stacks: Villian- $200 Hero- $190My cards are AKPreflop: Hero raises to 10, several folds, Villian calls $10, everyone folds.Flop: Kx, 8d, 4dHero bets $16, Villian Raises to $40 Hero:
LOLOK. I like this thread. People arguing about a hand. Nice. Anyway, we really need to know what our suits are in our hand. This gives us SOME information to go on. Do we hold AdKd? If we do, let villain hang himself by calling or min-raising, because I almost think he's got a flush draw by raising like this when WE hit the board with our K -- only leaves two kings left in the deck.Aside from that, a lot of the problem here can be solved by a better flop bet. Personally, if I raise AK and flop one of my two cards, I'm potting or overbetting it, depending on the villain. That's the way I play AK in cash games. Frankly, I don't feel that it's just that strong of a hand to take all the way to the river, street-by-street, in cash games. It plays 1,000 times better in tourney formats, AINEC. So if we know that the villain overplays any pair, I'm looking to shove and get the call from KQ/whatever. If the villain is the kind to shake his head and muck KQ here, I bring him along more slowly. So. We got a pot of $23 or so and we bet $16. If I'm your garden-variety $1/$2 villain, I would be thinking you hold KJ / KT / K? or something now, because the $10 PF raise and $16 bet frankly isn't that much for most $1/$2 games, and most $1/$2 players bet the strength of their hand. So if I'm the villain, I might raise my flush draw, especially if I perceive you as tight.Just an aside, would this "Hoosier" slow play AA PF like this? Just a thought.Anyway, after thinking it through, and needing more information than I would have if I had played the hand myself, I'm going to say shove. Not because it's a brilliant play, but because we've butchered the hand a little and just need to get out. If he folds, we're getting 1/4 of his stack.
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Ok, my cards were AsKh. I had no diamond.I think Royal's assessment is spot on. I do not see Villians raising in this spot with hands that we beat very often, but rather just calling if they had a hand like KJ or a diamond draw.Also, its not fair to say that our TPTK's are always good here because it is "1-2 live NL" I play at one of three major casinos here in St. Louis, and i've spoke to some regulars who consider the 2-5 game at Harrah's "the game in town". If the 2-5 game is this way (there's only about 2 of them running), then the 1-2 games can't be too far off in difficulty. From my experience, at least 75 % of the players have at least some idea of what they are doing, and are not hyper-aggressive Donks or anything like NL players in Vegas or Atlantic City from what i hear. Most players play 1-2 live like they would 2-4 Nl online. IDK, i just don't understand why this excuse is used when we talk about mid-limit live games, but its rarely used in Micro-limit strategy posts.

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Most players play 1-2 live like they would 2-4 Nl online. IDK, i just don't understand why this excuse is used when we talk about mid-limit live games, but its rarely used in Micro-limit strategy posts.
1. There is NO WAY that you will see a 1/2 live game that plays like 2/4 online. I've played up to 25/50 NL live and logged a fair amount of hours at 5/10 and 10/20. I can tell you that the players who beat a 1/2 game online are more than equipped to crush a 5/10 game live most of the time. Bigger live limits correlate to lower online limits, not the other way around.2. This whole hand really feels like a limited bankroll issue to me. Do you have any idea how weak tight it is to assume that you're beaten because you made a 2/3 PSB continuation bet on a semi-coordinated board and are facing a VERY STANDARD raise? If you're going to give up on AK here, or assume that you're beaten most of the time (and still call) then you're gonna be losing soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much money. Your hand is so strong here. You do realize that for him to be beating you, he needs like exactly 88 or 44, or to have called a raise with 84/K4/K8 preflop? Against the 1st 2, you're dead but against the last 3, you have between 3-9 outs depending on how the board cards fall.You're crushing his range. Stick some more money in the pot. If he's got you beaten, reach into your pocket and pull out another buyin. I don't understand the logic of "he can't raise this flop without a hand that beats me or a huge draw," I just don't. He's got position. The bet doesn't represent a large % of his stack. Why the hell are you so dead set that it represents so much strength?
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1. There is NO WAY that you will see a 1/2 live game that plays like 2/4 online. I've played up to 25/50 NL live and logged a fair amount of hours at 5/10 and 10/20. I can tell you that the players who beat a 1/2 game online are more than equipped to crush a 5/10 game live most of the time. Bigger live limits correlate to lower online limits, not the other way around.2. This whole hand really feels like a limited bankroll issue to me. Do you have any idea how weak tight it is to assume that you're beaten because you made a 2/3 PSB continuation bet on a semi-coordinated board and are facing a VERY STANDARD raise? If you're going to give up on AK here, or assume that you're beaten most of the time (and still call) then you're gonna be losing soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much money. Your hand is so strong here. You do realize that for him to be beating you, he needs like exactly 88 or 44, or to have called a raise with 84/K4/K8 preflop? Against the 1st 2, you're dead but against the last 3, you have between 3-9 outs depending on how the board cards fall.You're crushing his range. Stick some more money in the pot. If he's got you beaten, reach into your pocket and pull out another buyin. I don't understand the logic of "he can't raise this flop without a hand that beats me or a huge draw," I just don't. He's got position. The bet doesn't represent a large % of his stack. Why the hell are you so dead set that it represents so much strength?
Dude, i really do not get why you sound so mad in your posts sometimes. The only thing i said was the 1-2 games where i play, the games play very tight, and when people are raising you, its usually not on a draw. You have to remember something when you go off on these rants against me. When i make these posts, keep in mind that I do not have anywhere NEAR the playing time and actual live experience under their belt than you do, so quite acting like this is supposed to be second nature to me or something. Your feedback is GREAT. But i just don't get why you act so upset? I'm LEARNING this game, thats why i post. Have you ever made an exaggeration before? Yep, i'm sure you did. You did last week. I made an exaggeration about 2/4 online vs. 1-2 live. Of course its not the same but the 1-2 games that i play are generally not just chalk full of donks that you are accustomed to in Vegas man. Generally, they are alot of young players that are tight with their money, and some older players who only raise with the nuts. Thats all i said.Now getting to the hand, you are correct when you say it is partly due to a limited bankroll issue. I just can't reach in my pockets and pull out a couple more hundreds and say reload all the time when my TPTK goes down the toilet. I am learning alot now (after an -1100 downswing) that i can't afford to play LAG and if i decide to play 1-2, i have to play VERY tight. In this session, i was playing tight. When i was raised on the flop, i have to make my decision here whether i'm going with the hand all the way or folding. I decided to call and check raise a non diamond turn. The J hearts came on the turn, i checked, he bet 50, I shoved, he called and had a set of 8's. GG me, i suck. After the hand, i really thought about it, and didn't know if this was standard, or if i should have paid more attention to the fact that i had not seen him raise or stick money in the pot without a good hand. I felt i should have paid more attention to my read and just folded to the raise. I talked about the hand with a young player sitting next to me and he said he loses more money when he flops top pair than anything else. So, yes, i think this is an issue that is worthy of some discussion, and not just because its "1-2 Nl live", and yes, i am a broke bastard, i should never play 1-2 NL in my life because i will be too weak tight, etc, continue flaming.
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the description: He is loose passive preflop, but plays careful postflop.means he calls nearly ATC and only raises when he has the nuts/near nutswhen you make that description yourself, why bother posting? TBH your read tells you exactly what he had. He's a calling station, get the hell out of the way when he raises (no i'm not being results oriented but w/e)oh, and your game isn't good if you have these types of players... this is a COMMON opponent/fish to run into in microstakes.One thing you can do to solidify this read, is take note of how often he plays OOP with garbage. If he isn't aware of position, this is never a diamond draw.

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the description: He is loose passive preflop, but plays careful postflop.means he calls nearly ATC and only raises when he has the nuts/near nutswhen you make that description yourself, why bother posting? TBH your read tells you exactly what he had. He's a calling station, get the hell out of the way when he raises (no i'm not being results oriented but w/e)
I appreciate your response, but yes you are being results orientated. I gave the specific read in order to see if people are still shoving here. I like to post to get feedback, thanks.
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Dude, i really do not get why you sound so mad in your posts sometimes. The only thing i said was the 1-2 games where i play, the games play very tight, and when people are raising you, its usually not on a draw. You have to remember something when you go off on these rants against me. When i make these posts, keep in mind that I do not have anywhere NEAR the playing time and actual live experience under their belt than you do, so quite acting like this is supposed to be second nature to me or something. Your feedback is GREAT. But i just don't get why you act so upset? I'm LEARNING this game, thats why i post. Have you ever made an exaggeration before? Yep, i'm sure you did. You did last week. I made an exaggeration about 2/4 online vs. 1-2 live. Of course its not the same but the 1-2 games that i play are generally not just chalk full of donks that you are accustomed to in Vegas man. Generally, they are alot of young players that are tight with their money, and some older players who only raise with the nuts. Thats all i said.Now getting to the hand, you are correct when you say it is partly due to a limited bankroll issue. I just can't reach in my pockets and pull out a couple more hundreds and say reload all the time when my TPTK goes down the toilet. I am learning alot now (after an -1100 downswing) that i can't afford to play LAG and if i decide to play 1-2, i have to play VERY tight. In this session, i was playing tight. When i was raised on the flop, i have to make my decision here whether i'm going with the hand all the way or folding. I decided to call and check raise a non diamond turn. The J hearts came on the turn, i checked, he bet 50, I shoved, he called and had a set of 8's. GG me, i suck. After the hand, i really thought about it, and didn't know if this was standard, or if i should have paid more attention to the fact that i had not seen him raise or stick money in the pot without a good hand. I felt i should have paid more attention to my read and just folded to the raise. I talked about the hand with a young player sitting next to me and he said he loses more money when he flops top pair than anything else. So, yes, i think this is an issue that is worthy of some discussion, and not just because its "1-2 Nl live", and yes, i am a broke bastard, i should never play 1-2 NL in my life because i will be too weak tight, etc, continue flaming.
I'm not angry at all. Please grow thicker skin because this is like the 3rd time that you've acted somewhat offended by the tone of my posts in your thread and you've made it known each time. Stop taking things personally and stop reminding me that I have more experience than you. I know I do and that's why I'm offering advice here. Read what I have to say and learn from it or ignore it or disagree or do whatever you want with it. Just stop acting like I'm being such an ******* or going out of my way to be mean to you or whatever. I post the same way in everyone's threads. You post this hand and it's already obvious from the original post that you lose it. I know this. Most of the posters probably know this. I know that your opponent has a set or 2 pair already when you make this post and I'm still telling you to shove. Why do you think that is? Is it becuase I'm secretly trying to make someone I've never met lose money? Man, I hope not :club:. No, it's because your opponent has a range of hands. In actuality, their hand is only one hand in that range of hands, but you must act accoring to the group of hands that he would play in this manner. The fact is that there are just so many more hands that you beat, than are beating you. Some of them he will certainly call a raise with (like a naked flush draw, Kx suited with the flush draw, flush draw+gutshot) and some that beat you (like 2 pair or a set) and some that may sometimes call your raise and sometimes fold, like KQ or KJ type of hands. If you had $400 in front of you, I would advocate that you call his raise and play very carefully because stacking off for 200 BBs on the flop with 1 pair is usually a pretty big mistake. With only 100 BBs and TPTK, this isn't a big mistake at all and is almost always correct against the range of hands that he holds.I mean, your plan for the hand is quite frankly terrible. If you think he's got your hand beaten, then you should fold on the flop. If you think there's a high enough chance that he's got a draw or a weaker made hand, you should raise. What you chose to do is decide that it is very likely that he's got a draw or a weaker hand, so you flat called his bet, gave him a chance to improve for free, and THEN you put all of your chips into the pot. What were you trying to accomplish? If you thought you have the best hand on the flop, then just reraise/shove/get the money in. If you don't think you have the best hand, then you should just fold to his raise because you're not really getting good odds to outdraw him and you're OOP and if he's got a set, you're drawing almost dead anyway.If you can't afford to risk a stack here when you are very far ahead of his range, then you need to find a different game to play. I understand that you are learning and want to play and don't have a ton of money laying around, but if the amount of money that you do have is adversely affecting your play, then you really need a different game to play in.
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1. There is NO WAY that you will see a 1/2 live game that plays like 2/4 online. I've played up to 25/50 NL live and logged a fair amount of hours at 5/10 and 10/20. I can tell you that the players who beat a 1/2 game online are more than equipped to crush a 5/10 game live most of the time. Bigger live limits correlate to lower online limits, not the other way around.
I agree with the generalization that B&M games are easier than the same stakes live, but there are definitely exceptions. So I disagree with the statement in bold. 1/2 is a bigger game relative to the cost of living out here. It's also not like Vegas in the selection of games, either. Some very tough players are sitting at 1/2 games because it's the biggest game they could find in their city.
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I agree with the generalization that B&M games are easier than the same stakes live, but there are definitely exceptions. So I disagree with the statement in bold. 1/2 is a bigger game relative to the cost of living out here. It's also not like Vegas in the selection of games, either. Some very tough players are sitting at 1/2 games because it's the biggest game they could find in their city.
I understand that, but it's mostly the level of aggression. I grew up in upstate NY and played at Turning Stone Casino while I was in college. I'm pretty sure that most people who play 1/2 there are devastated to lose $300. Relative to the cost of living in upstate NY, it's a miracle that they ever had a 5/10 game going, even if it was only on Friday nights.I've played all over the place like in CA and Vegas and AC and Foxwoods and TS and while all of the 1/2 games are different, the aggression factor isn't nearly as high as it is online. I'm saying that not even in the 5/10 games in Vegas are people as aggressive as they are at 1/2 online.It's really not a knock on the quality of the players as much as it is a knock on the styles they play.
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