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2 - 5 NL Live Game

 

SB

BB (Me) - $1,200

UTG - $600

UTG+2 - $800

**UTG+3 - $1100

Button - $900

 

UTG raised preflop to $40, UTG+2 calls, **UTG+3 calls, Button calls, I call from the BB with :6s:6d .

 

Flop comes: :6h:7c:8c

 

As first to act I check, I'm in a good position here with preflop raiser on my immediate left who I know well, she C-Bets 100% of hands, so I get to see action for free... I also know the other three callers:

UTG+2 plays an ABC game fairly tightly, but gets out of hand with pots where he is the aggressor... when he has the nuts he plays very passive.

**UTG+3 a drunk rich regular... the kind who will shove $1100 blind... or call his whole stack with any 2 preflop if he knows he's up against AA cause it's "fun" to crack Aces...

Button is an older player who plays a passive game and then completely overbets... limp shoves with AA KK almost 100% of the time.

 

I check

UTG bets $95

UTG+2 - Calls

**UTG+3 - Calls

Button - Calls

 

What should I do?

 

(The bold stuff is added, I messed up telling the hand the first time around with pretty key info lol... meh)

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I agree with the raise, more often than not the only one calling has a nut flush draw, possibly As/Jk don't see the straight as a possibility, not with the players you described. I probably call pre flop as well with your stack, in position. After the two calls of 90 I make it 450-500 or so then jam the turn. You could flat but passive players prob lay this down, unless they hero with Aa/KK but only have two outs assuming it doesn't go runner runner club.

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Also I'm saying passive players probably lay the cards down to a raise, I should explain better I'm sorry.

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I agree raise the flop up to 500 or 600. Then jam the turn. I totally disagree with above saying this is a fold preflop. You are basically set mining here and with fairly deep stacks and $125 in the pot and only $35 more to call, against 3 0pponents easy call.

 

How did it turn out?

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ugh... I completely messed up describing the hand haha... sorry guys.

 

There was a 4th player involved UTG+3 With $1100ish stack...

He also called & called the flop bet.

 

This player was a drunk rich regular... the kind who will shove $1100 blind... or call his whole stack with any 2 preflop if he knows he's up against AA cause it's "fun" to crack Aces...

 

Sorry guys I posted in a rush... thanks for the input... lemme know if this changes anything. (I will edit the original post)

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The only thing it changes is maybe bet slightly more than I had originally posted, still jamming the turn. If he's that big of a donk to come with like 9/10 trying to crack something, that sucks. Does he play every hand? Or at least way more than average, since he is super aggro as described and didn't jam the flop I prob still 600 the flop , rest on the turn, if it gets that far.

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I agree raise the flop up to 500 or 600. Then jam the turn. I totally disagree with above saying this is a fold preflop. You are basically set mining here and with fairly deep stacks and $125 in the pot and only $35 more to call, against 3 0pponents easy call.

 

How did it turn out?

Don't raise to 500;that would be really bad.

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So the line I opted for was to flat call the flop.

 

My intentions were to see the turn, and hoping for a miss I intended to increase my aggression so the draws only had 1 card to come.

 

The turn card fell :4c ... I checked, UTG checked UTG+3 shoved, I folded and UTG called...

 

UTG+3 had :5c:jc ...

 

When I folded I discussed my line on the hand with a friend who is easily the best player in the room. He said that he would've played the flop much more aggressively, which is also the line you guys took...

 

So you all say raise on this flop? Can you explain why this is better than pot control, extracting good value on the turn?

 

I feel like I still prefer my line, but my concern is that I'm playing overly cautious to protect my stack rather than maximize profits. So... please convince me that I should be raising this flop.

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That's riduclous, UTGplus3 shouldn't of been in that hand. That's just unlucky, you did the right thing it turns out, but to put him on an open ended straight draw and a flush draw is just ridiculous for the action that occurred. I prob still jam the 600 and make him make the decision, yes he's probably calling but you're not in horrible shape. You could boat up or he could just miss, either that or he puts you on the nut flush draw and lays it down anyway. If you shove there 9/10 they're prob thinking AK/AC clubs.

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Bc if the the crazy guy is willing to get it in with these types of hands, we can do it right away on the flop when we pretty much have the nuts. He is gonna be getting it in with over pairs, two pair, straight draws and flush draws. Get the money in now so we don't have to worry about him maybe folding if the flush card gets there. Even if you then do end up being against a flush draw and he gets there, you still have outs. And against a maniac, folding the turn is pretty nitty too. He can have worse hands here a lot and can have bluffs. You've got to think about the villain you are playing. Your description of him and his style really goes against how you played his hand

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Was just an initial feeling the first time I read the hand before he added the utg+3 guy. Just seems to be a large open size and I hate being oop, tho its obviously a fit/fold situation. I was wanting all stacks to be 200+.

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All stacks were $600+ and maniacs full stack was in play for almost any made hand. No way it's a fold pre.

 

In my description of the maniac I left out that I am very comfortable with my reads on him in the vast majority of situations. The fold on the turn was an easy snap fold after watching him bet.

 

Also I understand that it comes across as being results oriented, but I really don't intend it to be. Had the turn come a blank and I would've won the hand (don't know for sure that would've happened) I still would've asked my friend for his input on my flop action and he still would've said he takes a more aggressive line. I'm asking the question because of the options going through my mind while making the flop decision and in my mind the two lines are very very close.

 

I certainly wasn't giving the maniac credit for the open ended flush draw.. but with 4 hands out there I have to give at least 2 of them credit for their $95 flop calls.

Flush draw is in the mix for sure (always is)

Open ender is possibly out there but unlikely (Only Maniac would have it in range (unless it's a pocket pair of 10's)

78 for top two pair cripples my hand for a boat redraw

 

A made straight or A higher set isn't out of the question... but obviously unlikely.

 

I didn't have anyone on specific hands on the bet calling info in front of me.

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Agreeing with gadjet no way is this a fold pre, you could justify calling with a lot of hands in that position. Any pp there is an easy call, even most suited connectors/ jack 9 or better suited for value.

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I guess it's hard to express how odd the game I play in is... which in turn makes it difficult to discuss strategies etc... and then of course I forgot a key player when first describing the hand lol

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Where are you playing ? And I think a pre call here is still a no brainer... Didn't even think that was still up for discussion.

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It's a cash game with 4 players in there, to much money to hit your set - which you did. Check-raise the flop, it shows really good strength especially with that board texture. Sure, you want to extract value - but I think 135 + 270 in a 1-2 hand against 4 players for a pair of 6's in this pot is pretty decent value. Not to mention with that board texture, it becomes less about value at this point but more against protecting a very vulnerable hand. He may or may not have called - you'll never know - but the best thing in poker is to put your opponents to the test every step of the way. Make them sweat the rough and tough decisions. Once you make it anywhere between 360-500 you're showing a lot of strength and you're putting them to the test and all you have to do is sit back and know that unless they snap call, you're way ahead. It's always best if you're the one putting everybody to the test and not the one having to make the tough decisions. Aggressive is the way to go - especially with this board texture.

 

Now, on a 6 K 9 board texture, I'm all for just flatting and then leading out on the turn, especially if a K or a 9 hits. Your hand is definitely well hidden and you're going to get paid off unless they boat up on the river (but hey, all you can do is play your best and let the cards do the rest).

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He 9x the bb, but hero has 240bbs... And is already in for a blind. 8 bb to potentially win 36bb plus action after the flop. Great post above me.

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Too many people on draws in the hand on the flop. So I still think the smart play is to check raise the flop. That way you get most of the draws out and maybe someone with 2 pair, top top, nut flush or pair with a draw calls you. Dead money adds up in a good session.

 

If players are steaming or tilting it has been my experience they will often call your check raise with a lot of sub par hands. I see your reasoning as being more acceptable if it was heads up.

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