13 replies to this topic

[Mashchit]

2 hands from a recent $4 180 tournament.Hand 1PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed)Button (t4015)SB (t3750)BB (t1253)UTG (t3514)UTG+1 (t4835)UTG+2 (t2640)MP1 (t4630)Hero (t2040)CO (t3080)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with AsQc. 4 folds, Hero raises t300 to t450, CO raises to t2630 to t3080 and is all-in, Hero calls.3 things on this:1) I dislike calling all in for my tournament life with AK, but I think that if I have AK here it's pretty much an automatic call. Are then any dissenters on that?2) The hand itself. I thought for quite a while about this before calling. So far in the tournament I've been card dead, but doubled up earlier on when I flopped 2 pair from one of the blinds in an unraised pot. I've therefore been playing tighter than a camel's @rse in a sandstorm. If the villain had been at the table any length of time then this would make me more inclined to fold. However, he's only been at the table a few hands so he won't know that I've been playing tight and I have no read on him.So, is the initial raise about right and do I call or fold to the push? Essentially I called because I knew that I needed to build a stack (I had about half the average stack at the time) and it being a $4 tourney the raiser could have quite a range of hands.On the negative side, AK obviously becomes a worry and QQ is more of a worry than would be the case if I was sitting there with AK myself.3) Would the answers to 2) still be the same in a $20 180?2I don't want to post results, but it's relevant. I won hand 1, someone else said "nc" and the villain went off on a Hellmuthesque rant about how lousy a call it was, because I had to know I was dominated, etc., etc. I didn't defend it being a good call - I wasn't sure that it was - but pointed out that as it was a $4 event I wasn't guaranteed to be dominated. That set the villain off on another rant as he missed my point completely and thought I was calling because it was a $4 event. I tried to correct him, established that he didn't understand, since he plays the same regardless of the level of the buy in, and then peace returned to the poker table.Having established himself as a pro who was kindly playing at low levels just to educate the ignorant fish there, he made a few dubious calls and raises with his short stack that paid off and then built his stack up considerably with some excellent play. (Also known as having QQ stand up, doubling up with AA v AK, and adding another chunk when you raise the bb all in with a low pp and get called by an even lower pp - the last of which was kind of my point about it being a $4 event.) Once he'd got his stack he started playing some seemingly sensible, selective attacking poker with it, picking up a few blinds and pots here and there without showing down many hands.Being a lucky fish who calls with dominated hands, I didn't have sufficient skill to conjure up big pairs that would double me up. My stack dwindled until this hand came up against the villain...PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed with t25 antes)Button (t4025) SB (t5159) BB (t14063) UTG (t2615) UTG+1 (t23300) Hero (t3530) MP2 (t9515) CO (t5315) is sitting outPreflop: Hero is MP1 with KdQd2 folds, Hero raises t600 to t800, MP2 raises 600 to t1400, 3 folds, Hero recalls Barney Boatman's words: "KQ - the most over-rated hand in no limit Texas Hold 'Em"I'm normally wary about playing KQ, unless I'm in late position or doing a low M push, because it's so easily dominated, but the table was tight. Is the initial raise okay? The villain has done varying bets and raises preflop, but I haven't seen him do a minimum raise like this before, so I have no idea where I am in the hand. So, what's my play facing his raise?

[therrinn]

I've only played a couple of the $4 tourneys, but I'll go ahead and give some feedback.For the first hand, if you had AK, its an automatic call. AQ is more sketchy. In a $20, I'd probably be folding the AQ without a read on the opponent. In a $4, I probably call. I played a $4 recent and I had 99 one hand from MP. I raised it up, got two LP callers, then the BB jammed. Naturally, I let it go, both of the original callers called all in. The BB had AQ, the other two in LP both had AJ. I don't have enough of a tournament pool to know for sure, but it just seems that people are way more fond of weak aces at that level, so you're more likely to be in ok shape. In the second hand, fold it. The only flop that you'd like would be one where you flop two pair, and even then you might be beat. KQ can't stand up to a reraise.What I find to be interesting is that at the 75/150 level you raise it up to 450 to go, but at the 100/200 you raise it up to 800. Very curious as to why you did this, as I would've preferred the reverse.

[shpaget]

Hand 1 - $4 event I call in a heartbeat because there are many possible hands where YOU dominate and many more coin flip hands...$20...not sure...I'm likely not dominating so I'm a coin flip at best (I doubt you're even chopping) and you are probably dominated by most of his range....stacksizes other way around, I may call...for my tournament life, I fold...In my regular $50 live event I play I likely fold.On the other hand, I probably just open push.Hand 2 - I raise to 600, not 800...and likely fold to his raise - smells like a trap, even if you are getting 4:1 to call...you can't call - that leaves you with a 2/3 potsized bet on the flop, plus you're OOP to the guy who has you covered - so even if you play stop'n'go you're likely getting called....and I can't see you having any fold equity whatsoever if you push, and you are absolutely at best a coin flip, and most likely dominated. You need to flop KQx to have any chance.caca

[throwemaway]

Hand 1- Discount the fact that he just sat at the table and has been seeing you play tight...People dont pay attention in these 4.40s( most people i should say) to anything besides their hole cards..That being said, I hate playing short stacked..I might be willing to gamble here, although I've found that it is much easier to double in 4.40s than in 22s..People will just call you with such a wider range in these, and if you can pick up a remotely solid hand and have it hold, you'll be in good shape..So to answer your question, it just depends on how effectively you can play a short stack and how comfortable you are with it...Hand 2.. After the min re raise, I'm folding..This seems to mean AA or KK sooo much, and even if its not, chances are you are still dominated by AK or AQ..Even if you take a flop and hit a K or Q, you really cant be too confident at all..I let this one goAlso: What was the standard raise at your table..You said they were tight, so were they folding to 3x raises? If so, make it 3x as you want to risk the min. amount of chips to accomplish the same goal

[Mashchit]

throwemaway, on Friday, June 9th, 2006, 8:19 AM, said:

Hand 1- Discount the fact that he just sat at the table and has been seeing you play tight...People dont pay attention in these 4.40s( most people i should say) to anything besides their hole cards..That being said, I hate playing short stacked..I might be willing to gamble here, although I've found that it is much easier to double in 4.40s than in 22s..People will just call you with such a wider range in these, and if you can pick up a remotely solid hand and have it hold, you'll be in good shape..So to answer your question, it just depends on how effectively you can play a short stack and how comfortable you are with it...Hand 2.. After the min re raise, I'm folding..This seems to mean AA or KK sooo much, and even if its not, chances are you are still dominated by AK or AQ..Even if you take a flop and hit a K or Q, you really cant be too confident at all..I let this one goAlso: What was the standard raise at your table..You said they were tight, so were they folding to 3x raises? If so, make it 3x as you want to risk the min. amount of chips to accomplish the same goal

My point on the first bit was that he wouldn't have seen me playing tight. If he had been at my table from the start then I might have narrowed his range down a little more. But as you say, a lot of people at low levels pay no attention. That said, some do.Good points on ability with short stack and the standard raise. I'm often a short stack, so I'm comfortable with that, but I'm not sure how effective I am with it. There wasn't a standard raise size.Thanks for the feedback so far. AQ being a probable call in a $4 and a probable fold in a $20 were my thoughts too.The comments on the second hand were interesting too. Pushing didn't seem an option to me and I was wondering whether the odds were big enough to make up for being oop and the amount of my stack it took. None of you have a problem with playing KQ there though?

therrinn, on Friday, June 9th, 2006, 5:39 AM, said:

What I find to be interesting is that at the 75/150 level you raise it up to 450 to go, but at the 100/200 you raise it up to 800. Very curious as to why you did this, as I would've preferred the reverse.

I'm trying to remember my thinking (if any). I'll have to read your guide again to see why you prefer the reverse. I think the first one was a multi-tabling c0ck up where I meant to raise 450 and raised to 450 instead. Second one... probably a subconscious memory of Cloutier and McEvoy advice combined with "please don't call me!"

[shpaget]

Quote

The comments on the second hand were interesting too. Pushing didn't seem an option to me and I was wondering whether the odds were big enough to make up for being oop and the amount of my stack it took. None of you have a problem with playing KQ there though?

It's very close...3rd to act at a 10-handed table and I probably fold. I would likely play it here, but like I said, raise to 600, not 800.If you call his raise you are calling it for the express purpose of putting the rest of your chips in on the flop, no matter what flops.And he'll be getting over 2:1 to call to see two cards...you will have more fold equity than if you just pushed preflop, but he will still be able to call with a lot of hands.

[Rocketwadster]

First hand I don't mind.Second hand - you may as well have pushed pre-flop if you were going to play that hand in the first place. Once you raised and it was re-raised, you dont have enough chips left IMO to do anything but push the next time you okay a hand. You desperately need to start accumulating some chips, and this is as good a time as any IMO.

[Mashchit]

Rocketwadster, on Saturday, June 10th, 2006, 8:09 AM, said:

First hand I don't mind.Second hand - you may as well have pushed pre-flop if you were going to play that hand in the first place. Once you raised and it was re-raised, you dont have enough chips left IMO to do anything but push the next time you okay a hand. You desperately need to start accumulating some chips, and this is as good a time as any IMO.

I'll dust off HOH2 in a sec, but isn't an M of 7 a little too high to be pushing all in? Especially with KQ? I normally go by the 10* bb guideline.

[therrinn]

Mashchit, on Saturday, June 10th, 2006, 3:03 PM, said:

I'll dust off HOH2 in a sec, but isn't an M of 7 a little too high to be pushing all in? Especially with KQ? I normally go by the 10* bb guideline.

I actually think that you're touching on one of the points from HOH that is poorly understood. Yes, if you have an M in the red zone, you get to a place where you're looking to push with first in vig. But a key part of your strategy should be to not get into a position like that - you need to make a play or take a gamble before you get to the position where you're desperate. I'm not making a comment on this specific hand, just trying to point out something which seems to be overlooked a lot of the time.

[Mashchit]

therrinn, on Saturday, June 10th, 2006, 7:00 PM, said:

I actually think that you're touching on one of the points from HOH that is poorly understood. Yes, if you have an M in the red zone, you get to a place where you're looking to push with first in vig. But a key part of your strategy should be to not get into a position like that - you need to make a play or take a gamble before you get to the position where you're desperate. I'm not making a comment on this specific hand, just trying to point out something which seems to be overlooked a lot of the time.

That's a good observation and it's a problem that i have in mtts, namely knowing when to make that move. I tend to wait to long and find myself in the red zone.Rerturning to the hand in question... would you take your stand there and push it rather than raising it to start with? And if you had raised it like I did would you have push reraised then?

[XXEddie]

I don't want to post results, but it's relevant No. Its not.the AQ was a bad, bad call. and the fact that you won doesnt change it.Youre calling 2600 to win 3600, not even 3:2He could have you dominated just as much as you could have him dominatedHand 2, fine, if he wouldnt of min-raised like a donk, id fold, but youre getting over 3-1, thats a call even if he had 75o

[Mashchit]

XXEddie, on Sunday, June 11th, 2006, 7:25 AM, said:

I don't want to post results, but it's relevant No. Its not.the AQ was a bad, bad call. and the fact that you won doesnt change it.Youre calling 2600 to win 3600, not even 3:2He could have you dominated just as much as you could have him dominatedHand 2, fine, if he wouldnt of min-raised like a donk, id fold, but youre getting over 3-1, thats a call even if he had 75o

The result of hand 1 was relevant to hand 2 since that was with the same villain and I obviously needed to survive hand 1 to play hand 2. The fact that I won the hand is irrelevant to the analysis of hand 1 though. As you'll note, I didn't comment on what I was up against or how I won, just the fact that my opponent didn't like my call.On hand 1... Pay attention 007. I started with 2040, so how I could be calling 2,600? I was calling 1,590 to win 2,765, which is 1.74:1. Given that it was a $4 tourney and I had no read, I'm comfortable with the call. I'd have preferred to have AK to avoid the worry of that being in the villain's range, and would have probably folded AQ if this had been the $20 tourney. Hand 2 I'm still not sure about. I hadn't seen him min raise before and I wasn't sure whether this was a trap with a big hand, or pegging me as a bad player and wanting to play a pot with me in position, whilst trying to keep out the rest without committing his whole stack, or something else. The odds were tempting, but being oop with KQ wasn't.

[Rocketwadster]

Mashchit, on Sunday, June 11th, 2006, 12:48 AM, said:

That's a good observation and it's a problem that i have in mtts, namely knowing when to make that move. I tend to wait to long and find myself in the red zone.Rerturning to the hand in question... would you take your stand there and push it rather than raising it to start with? And if you had raised it like I did would you have push reraised then?

Maybe I wasn't clear in my comments on hand 2: I was trying to indicate that I wouldn't have played that hand from that position at the table with those blinds and your chip stack. However, if you do decide to play that hand from that position with those blinds and your chip stack, THEN I think you may as well just push pre-flop, to maximize your fold equity and all that jazz.

[Mashchit]

Rocketwadster, on Monday, June 12th, 2006, 5:48 AM, said:

Maybe I wasn't clear in my comments on hand 2: I was trying to indicate that I wouldn't have played that hand from that position at the table with those blinds and your chip stack. However, if you do decide to play that hand from that position with those blinds and your chip stack, THEN I think you may as well just push pre-flop, to maximize your fold equity and all that jazz.

Yeah, it wasn't my finest move. I think the tightness of the table, combined with a dearth of cards and seeing KQ for the fifth time persuaded me that I should play it. Stupid, stupid, stupid.Oh well, live and learn.