100 replies to this topic

[CorvairShaggy]

Tehtoe, on Wednesday, November 10th, 2010, 4:23 PM, said:

lol, a guy is jamming 8 bbs from the HJ and the button is isoing. He's prob doing this with like 66+, A9o+, A7s+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs. That's if he's fairly competent (which most people in a $5 turbo are not!) I don't know how to do the crazy sidepot math (Sparco?) but you fare excellently against his iso range. lol @ you can find a better spot, terribleeeee logic.These ranges are on the tighter side, but you get the idea.Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 68,185,416,222 games 95.474 secs 714,177,851 games/secBoard: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 37.884% 37.48% 00.41% 25552884216 278910796.33 { 99 }Hand 1: 26.969% 26.09% 00.88% 17787746294 601770722.83 { 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T9s, 98s, A5o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }Hand 2: 35.147% 34.17% 00.98% 23299440786 666034160.83 { 66+, A7s+, KTs+, QJs, A9o+, KJo+ }

Thank you for the explanation!! I am running things through stove now and I was using about 40% range (little wider than yours) and coming up with about 27/28/43 so this was correct. I am confused because I have been yelled at before for calling off my stack in similar situations, but I guess the difference is both of these are doing this from a late position, not early. Thanks again for the explanations of why. Sorry for my wrong thought process, but at least it got the wheels turning in here

[HighwayStar]

In the similar situation you had 22....

[CorvairShaggy]

HighwayStar, on Wednesday, November 10th, 2010, 4:48 PM, said:

In the similar situation you had 22....

Damn, you are not going to let me forget that hand are you!! I thought I got yelled at for another hand similar too. IDK. I get yelled at all the time, it is hard to keep up. Anyway, this thread is not about me. Carry on FaTa10ne, Good Luck, and glad that there is another person here to discuss hands with!!

[HighwayStar]

hows it going tonight?

[nutzzcase]

waiting eagerly for positive results!

[wsox8]

HighwayStar, on Wednesday, November 10th, 2010, 8:46 PM, said:

hows it going tonight?

I'm actually playing the Negreanu Open right now. Not doing too well. Thanks for asking though.

[FaTa10ne]

FT Tournament #339010893Feel free to watch.

[FaTa10ne]

Sigh... out in 6th, picked up AJ in SB, just called, hyperaggro BB shoves, I call.Milked from the teat of a feral cowPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($5.00+$0.50) t3000/t6000 ante t600 - 6 playersCO: t227,240 Button: t90,615 SB: t102,163 (Hero)BB: t210,492 UTG: t298,691 UTG+1: t258,799 Preflop: (t12,600) Hero is SB with (6 players)4 folds, Hero calls t3000, BB raises to t209892 and is all-in, Hero calls t95563 and is all-inFlop: (t206,726) (2 players)Turn: (t206,726) (2 players)River: (t206,726) (2 players)Hero showed , and lost with two pair, Aces and KingsBB showed , and won (206726) with a full house, Kings full of TensBB won t206726

[FaTa10ne]

Still good for $250 which is a solid cash for my level, just over $1k for first. It's terribly annoying to call down a hyper aggressive player and get sucked out on though, so frustrating.

[FaTa10ne]

One observation I will make though: I do much better just 1-2 tabling instead of trying to 4-5 table. When I try more tables, I'm almost always focusing on just my two cards. When I just have 1 table going, I'm able to get some reads and establish a feel for the range of hands my opponents are raising with. I think that is a big part of why I was able to get 2 deep runs the last 2 nights.

[JSpencer]

I'm not certain which one is appropriate, so I'll post them both:

[Mr. Sparco]

Tehtoe, on Wednesday, November 10th, 2010, 11:23 PM, said:

I don't know how to do the crazy sidepot math (Sparco?)

Well, doing exact side pot math in general sucks. Here is what you would have to do if you would want to do it exactly: - Consider every single hand in the short stack's range - Take that hand out of the deck in pokerstove - Stove your hand against the big stack's range - Average the resultsThe thing is that you have to consider almost every single hand that the short stack can have individually, including different suits. For example, if you have AsKh and QQ is in the short stack's range, then you will get slightly different results when you take out QsQh, QsQc or QdQc. So if you want very precise results, you have to stove for almost every individual hand, which for wide ranges gets wayyy to much work. It's about time someone wrote a program to do that (I've been giving subtle hints to VB and Q for a while now, but so far without success), but as far as I know, no such program exists at the moment.Of course, you could do a decent approximation by just taking out some QQ combo and multiplying by 6 (the number of ways in which he can have QQ), but then you would still have to do this for every type of hand in the short stack's range. If his range is QQ+, AK, that is doable; if it is the top 30% of hands it is still a mess.An even cruder approximation would be to completely forget about the short stack and just stove against the big stack's range without taking out any cards. When there is not too much correlation between the two ranges (for example, with very wide ranges like the ones in this example) that should give decent results. On the other hand, when there is a lot of correlation (for example when both ranges contain a lot of Ax combos), the result will not be too good.An extreme example: assume you have QQ and both villains will have a range which consists of exactly AK. Stoving against just AK for the side pot will give the usual 50/50 result; taking out one AK for the shorty and stoving against the other will show that you are actually a 65/35 favourite to win the side pot.As a general rule (though I'm sure exceptions can be constructed): when you have a pair, the crude approximation will give a result that is slightly too low, since the shorty's cards will often remove some of the big stack's outs. When you have two big cards, the crude approximation will give a result that is slightly too high, since the shorty's cards will often remove some of your outs.

[rrumsey]

FaTa10ne, on Wednesday, November 10th, 2010, 11:07 AM, said:

Do I really? I find people shove late game turbos with just about any two cards. I figured often I would be up against marginal hands at best. I ended up being up against a lower pair and an ace rag, which gave me very good odds. Do you really fold 99 preflop late in a turbo when blinds are gigantic, even if a couple other people shove?

Tehtoe, on Wednesday, November 10th, 2010, 2:31 PM, said:

Uh, don't fold the 99 pre. What are you guys talking about?

its not the opener i am worried about, it is the reshover. people dont reshove light in these games. we are at best 25% but we have no need to take that kinda risk in such a soft field with this kinda stack

[Tehtoe]

rrumsey, on Thursday, November 11th, 2010, 9:42 AM, said:

its not the opener i am worried about, it is the reshover. people dont reshove light in these games. we are at best 25% but we have no need to take that kinda risk in such a soft field with this kinda stack

at BEST 25%? lol

[FaTa10ne]

rrumsey, on Thursday, November 11th, 2010, 8:42 AM, said:

its not the opener i am worried about, it is the reshover. people dont reshove light in these games. we are at best 25% but we have no need to take that kinda risk in such a soft field with this kinda stack

I completely disagree. The reshover is on the button with a generous stack. He is definitely making an ISO shove here and rarely will have a hand like 99 or 1010 dominated. If he picks up a big pair, he probably doesn't come over the top here in hopes that someone else might want to come along from the blinds. And we are talking about a 12/180 turbo here. When blinds reach 250/500 we are fairly deep into the tournament, and need to take advantage of any opportunities that arise.If a 99 shove is incorrect here, I definitely need to know why if I have to adjust my game in this area.

[rrumsey]

FaTa10ne, on Thursday, November 11th, 2010, 1:53 PM, said:

I completely disagree. The reshover is on the button with a generous stack. He is definitely making an ISO shove here and rarely will have a hand like 99 or 1010 dominated. If he picks up a big pair, he probably doesn't come over the top here in hopes that someone else might want to come along from the blinds. And we are talking about a 12/180 turbo here. When blinds reach 250/500 we are fairly deep into the tournament, and need to take advantage of any opportunities that arise.If a 99 shove is incorrect here, I definitely need to know why if I have to adjust my game in this area.

its a personal style thing for me. if you push the 9's it is ever so slightly +ev imo. i dont like to take extremely thin spots against such weak players. the fact that the standard 2-180 player in general doesnt iso shove too light. but even if both people have 2 none similar overs, we still have marginal equity. and i think with this kinda stack we will have plenty of spots to take down pots and keep things alive a lot longer imo. a push is probably +ev. but it is extremely variant. i dont like to take too much variance with this kind stack size. its just how i have been taught to play against weak fields.

[HighwayStar]

I disagree that JJ+ is regularly out of his range.I agree that 99 is still a call here.

[FaTa10ne]

rrumsey, on Thursday, November 11th, 2010, 2:59 PM, said:

its a personal style thing for me. if you push the 9's it is ever so slightly +ev imo. i dont like to take extremely thin spots against such weak players. the fact that the standard 2-180 player in general doesnt iso shove too light. but even if both people have 2 none similar overs, we still have marginal equity. and i think with this kinda stack we will have plenty of spots to take down pots and keep things alive a lot longer imo. a push is probably +ev. but it is extremely variant. i dont like to take too much variance with this kind stack size. its just how i have been taught to play against weak fields.

Yeah I see your point. My problem is that if I pass up on this opportunity, often times I won't get any similarly premium hands till I'm practically blinded off.

[TrueAce13]

99 is def a call

[rrumsey]

FaTa10ne, on Thursday, November 11th, 2010, 4:41 PM, said:

Yeah I see your point. My problem is that if I pass up on this opportunity, often times I won't get any similarly premium hands till I'm practically blinded off.

you dont need a big hand to shove pre with blinds and antes. just the right stack and be opening the pot. even better if you are in later position. you need to try and fina a good push chart. this is an old one i did a few months ago but i dont love it but it will give an idea of shortstack play. you dont need a great hand. here is my pushchart from dc. it is slightly wrong bc i dont always shove ATC 10 BB or less any more but i would say top 60% at least. http://www.deucescra...T#posts-1906611i would be more inclined to push in a tougher field and against stronger villains who may call correctly short and take some of that edge away.