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Way Back East In The 5/10/20 Nl


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So, before I moved to Vegas, I used to play at Turning Stone Casino outside of Syracuse NY. On Friday nights from 5 pm til it broke, I'd usually try and play in the "Big Game" (the title is laughable) which was a 5/10 NL game where if you wanted to limp, it was $20. It was weird because if nobody limped, the typical preflop raise was often $40 or $50, so it played like a 5/10, but when people started limping for $20 and you wanted to raise preflop, you had to make it more of a 10/20 NL raise. So, anyway, there was no cap on the buyin and it was usually the same 6 or 7 people with a couple of strangers. It probably wasn't the most +EV game I've ever played in, but I was learning.I had bought in for like $1000 and was up to like $2200 when this hand came up.Joe is in his 70s and used to be a professional player of some kind. He's usually not that tricky, but he does put a lot of pressure on people. He's in the SB. Rick is an "ok" player in the BB. He gambles a little too much and has some discipline issues, but he does know the game.Both players know very little about me since I haven't played in the game too many times and I haven't shown down a lot of hands tonight.Joe: $5200Rick: $800Acid: $2200I open limp for $20 in MP with 2 :club: 2 :D. The button limps. Joe calls the $15 and Rick calls the $10.Flop: 4 Players ($80)A :D 2 :D 3 :D Joe and Rick check, I bet $70. The button folds, Joe check-raises me $150 more to $220. Rick thinks for a while before calling. (He's not tricky enough to not be on a flush draw here). I reraise to $700 total when it gets back to me. Joe looks at me, goes "You raised? I'm all in." In a much more confident voice than I'd ever really wanna hear. Rick called off his last chips and then the action's back on me. Acid??The thing about this whole hand is, I knew that he wasn't bluffing. Even when I was still miles away from the player that I am now (This was like a year and a half ago) I could still read this situation. In fact, it looked like he wasn't at all concerned with my hand. I thought the absolute minimum that he held was A3, which I thought to be really unlikely. Since Rick was obviously on a flush draw, I didn't think that Joe would be pushing his draw. That kind of leaves it so that I can only put him on one of 2 hands here. A set of 3s or a made straight. If that's the read, what are you gonna do here?

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The thing about this whole hand is, I knew that he wasn't bluffing. Even when I was still miles away from the player that I am now (This was like a year and a half ago) I could still read this situation. In fact, it looked like he wasn't at all concerned with my hand. I thought the absolute minimum that he held was A3, which I thought to be really unlikely. Since Rick was obviously on a flush draw, I didn't think that Joe would be pushing his draw. That kind of leaves it so that I can only put him on one of 2 hands here. A set of 3s or a made straight. If that's the read, what are you gonna do here?
I agree ... you're looking at a minimum A3, but man ... I would HATE to call this bet and be staring at a fricking hive of threes. The made straight, SD, or the flush draw wouldn't bother me a lot, because I'd already pretty much priced myself in to chase my FH outs over these hands. But the fact that there's so much heavy action here would make me worry a little that the "board pair outs" might be pretty much gone. Are either of these bozos the type to limp AA? That would run through the back of my mind, but if they can't price their hands any better than that preflop, I'm losing here, rebuying and taking my chips back. I might start the talking and see what I can get out of Joe. So unless I can get out of Joe that he has a set of threes, I'm going to go ahead and push them in. Almost half are in now, anyway.Did you post this hand to pimp over those of us who said we don't fold sets, ever? :club:
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I agree ... you're looking at a minimum A3, but man ... I would HATE to call this bet and be staring at a fricking hive of threes. The made straight, SD, or the flush draw wouldn't bother me a lot, because I'd already pretty much priced myself in to chase my FH outs over these hands. But the fact that there's so much heavy action here would make me worry a little that the "board pair outs" might be pretty much gone. Are either of these bozos the type to limp AA? That would run through the back of my mind, but if they can't price their hands any better than that preflop, I'm losing here, rebuying and taking my chips back. I might start the talking and see what I can get out of Joe. So unless I can get out of Joe that he has a set of threes, I'm going to go ahead and push them in. Almost half are in now, anyway.Did you post this hand to pimp over those of us who said we don't fold sets, ever? :club:
1/3 of my chips are in the pot and last time I looked that's not almost half :D. Being pot committed here isn't really a consideration.I'm one of the biggest proponents of the phrase "Just don't fold sets on the flop." Yeah, there are times but they are few and far between and you'll never really give up much if you just say "I flopped a set and I'm not folding."This is obviously one of those few times where it must be seriously considered, so what do we think?
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wow i suck at math-- i think we are getting just under 3:1 to call.joe makes this play with 33 or 45 so bleh, it's a toss up right? lol idk...he'd obviously shovel both these...if he shows us 45 we call, obviously if he shows the 33 we fold. did u remember to ask him to show?- Jordan

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30,690  games	 0.031 secs   990,000  games/secBoard: As 3s 2cDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	47.232%	  46.65% 	00.58% 			 14316 		  179.50   { 33, A3s-A2s, 54s, A3o-A2o, 54o }Hand 1: 	52.768%	  52.18% 	00.58% 			 16015 		  179.50   { 2h2s }

If you think it's just 33, 45:

18,810  games	 0.005 secs	 3,762,000  games/secBoard: As 3s 2cDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	66.970%	  66.49% 	00.48% 			 12507 		   90.00   { 33, 54s, 54o }Hand 1: 	33.030%	  32.55% 	00.48% 			  6123 		   90.00   { 2h2s }

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Cap the flop, cap the turn, bet/call the river UI.Play limit.
This is why you play limit isn't it Zach. Avoiding tough decisions? :club: When I was at the table, I remember being 95% sure that it was either 33 or 45. He wouldn't show up with AA here like ever and that other 5% is becuase I could be wrong and he could have A3, but for all intents and purposes, his range includes only 33 and 45.My pot odds are about 2.5-1 to call the all-in on the turn.
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1/3 of my chips are in the pot and last time I looked that's not almost half :D. Being pot committed here isn't really a consideration.I'm one of the biggest proponents of the phrase "Just don't fold sets on the flop." Yeah, there are times but they are few and far between and you'll never really give up much if you just say "I flopped a set and I'm not folding."This is obviously one of those few times where it must be seriously considered, so what do we think?
1/3 ... 1/2 ... same thing. :club: I think we feel like a genius when: -villains roll over A3 and FD and we hold-villains roll over straight and AK we fill upI think we feel like an *** when:-villains roll over A3 and straight and we don't improve-villains roll over straight and FD, and flush turns and we don't improve-villains roll over AK and 33We're all on high alert because of the set discussion earlier. I think that ... absent the context of these conversations, again, I try to get a read and act on that. It's going to be really, really difficult for me to lay this down. If I do, it'll take some minutes of thinking/reading. I want to put the pressure on villains, see if they give me a sense of what they have.EDIT: reason - at this point, the only hand I won't call is 33. I'll call the straight.
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did u remember to ask him to show?
Like I said, this was before I was really good enough to be playing 5/10 NL. Now, when I have a big decision, I always ask them to show me their hands before I call/fold. The worst that can happen is they say no, right?
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This is why you play limit isn't it Zach. Avoiding tough decisions? :club: When I was at the table, I remember being 95% sure that it was either 33 or 45. He wouldn't show up with AA here like ever and that other 5% is becuase I could be wrong and he could have A3, but for all intents and purposes, his range includes only 33 and 45.My pot odds are about 2.5-1 to call the all-in on the turn.
lol, different decisions in limit.I think for my sanity though, I like to see more showdowns, and I see more in LHE than NL, I think...lolI did used to destroy 100 NL on Stars about 10 months ago.Fwiw, you are 33% here, getting 2.5-1, it's an easy call vs 45o, 45s, 33.
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Fwiw, you are 33% here, getting 2.5-1, it's an easy call vs 45o, 45s, 33.
One thing though. We're in a vaccuum here. I have to assign percentages to each of those hands now that I know that is what his range is. I've been at work for 65 hours already this week, so I'm not gonna do math. What is my break-even percentage for how often he can have 33 and I can still make money by calling?Please show all work and have your assignment in to me by the end of the day.
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One thing though. We're in a vaccuum here. I have to assign percentages to each of those hands now that I know that is what his range is. I've been at work for 65 hours already this week, so I'm not gonna do math. What is my break-even percentage for how often he can have 33 and I can still make money by calling?Please show all work and have your assignment in to me by the end of the day.
Well, these probabilities are based on card combinations.33 is far less likely than 45, and since it's the SB we're dealing with, I really doubt the distribution is any different than simple card combinations.One thing I just realized, is that I didn't include the 3rd player in our equity calculations. Not sure if, or how much that will affect it though.
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Someone give me a range for the BB.
The BB is actually an interesting element in the hand. His money is essentially dead money in the pot as far as my hand is concerned. I'm either up against a bigger set or a made straight in the SB. I'm like 95% sure the BB has got a flush draw, since nothing else makes sense. So, if I improve to beat either hand that the SB holds, I will improve to be beating the BB as well and therefore his money in the pot is just adding to my equity.
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The BB is actually an interesting element in the hand. His money is essentially dead money in the pot as far as my hand is concerned. I'm either up against a bigger set or a made straight in the SB. I'm like 95% sure the BB has got a flush draw, since nothing else makes sense. So, if I improve to beat either hand that the SB holds, I will improve to be beating the BB as well and therefore his money in the pot is just adding to my equity.
lol duh, good point.
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Unraised pot preflop, dangerous board...why the hell did you reraise to 700 ???You can let go of your 90 dollar investment when he raises you and chuckle after the hand and lean to your neighbor and say "i would've had a boat" but you cannot reraise to 700 in this unraised preflop pot.That said, now your odds are way too good. Call.

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Unraised pot preflop, dangerous board...why the hell did you reraise to 700 ???You can let go of your 90 dollar investment when he raises you and chuckle after the hand and lean to your neighbor and say "i would've had a boat" but you cannot reraise to 700 in this unraised preflop pot.That said, now your odds are way too good. Call.
you have to raise no question.
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Unraised pot preflop, dangerous board...why the hell did you reraise to 700 ???You can let go of your 90 dollar investment when he raises you and chuckle after the hand and lean to your neighbor and say "i would've had a boat" but you cannot reraise to 700 in this unraised preflop pot.That said, now your odds are way too good. Call.
From my point of view, I'm behind only 2 hands here. I put in the raise to $700 (which is a reasonable raise) becuase there's a player in the pot who's on a flush draw. Letting him draw for free is beyond stupid.
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From my point of view, I'm behind only 2 hands here. I put in the raise to $700 (which is a reasonable raise) becuase there's a player in the pot who's on a flush draw. Letting him draw for free is beyond stupid.
Fine, get defensive, play how you want.What is with this machismo thing around here?You are beat and are asking everyone "why did I lose this hand."I'm telling you: you did not need to be in there in the first place. If you made it 60 to go preflop and bet 125 on the flop, then I'd say reraise to 3.5 times his raise, but the fact is this hand was unraised preflop, you have little information and should get out of the way of this situation.
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Fine, get defensive, play how you want.What is with this machismo thing around here?You are beat and are asking everyone "why did I lose this hand."I'm telling you: you did not need to be in there in the first place. If you made it 60 to go preflop and bet 125 on the flop, then I'd say reraise to 3.5 times his raise, but the fact is this hand was unraised preflop, you have little information and should get out of the way of this situation.
Please.Because he put in one raise, does not mean he's beat.Seriously.
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Please.Because he put in one raise, does not mean he's beat.Seriously.
I think it's a risk/reward judgment. I wouldn't want to be in this situation in an unraised preflop pot. If I raised giving him 3:1 or worse preflop, the chances of 45 being in there are small. As is, the guy got 5:1 with no action behind him which is an easy call with 45. I don't see this as a normal hand and would only be worth playing if there's a decent shot of getting the nuts: ie AA, Ks4s, 45...etc.Emphasis: for me (my personal judgment of the risk/reward scenario), this is by no means a normal "flop a set on a dangerous board" hand. This is worse.
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Fine, get defensive, play how you want.What is with this machismo thing around here?You are beat and are asking everyone "why did I lose this hand."I'm telling you: you did not need to be in there in the first place. If you made it 60 to go preflop and bet 125 on the flop, then I'd say reraise to 3.5 times his raise, but the fact is this hand was unraised preflop, you have little information and should get out of the way of this situation.
First of all, I'm not defensive, I'm pointing out that as the hand plays out, I can't let a player draw for free when my hand is likely the best hand. It's pretty basic.I'm not asking anyone "why did I lose this hand" nor have I even said that I lost it.Raising 22 from early middle position against a table of fairly tough players is not a profitable play in the long run. Why should I be rushing to get away from this hand? I have hit the only card that I wanted to hit. I now belong in this pot.Saying that I didn't need to be in there in the first place is not only playing the results (or assumed results, based on flop action) but it's wrong. Just becuase I am check-raised in a pot where I have floped a set, doesn't mean that person has one of two hands that beat mine (AA being unlikely here). He could easily have A3 and he would definitely check raise. I'm not sure why you are objecting to how I played the hand so much, since I honestly think that most of it is fairly standard.
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I think it's a risk/reward judgment. I wouldn't want to be in this situation in an unraised preflop pot. If I raised giving him 3:1 or worse preflop, the chances of 45 being in there are small. As is, the guy got 5:1 with no action behind him which is an easy call with 45. I don't see this as a normal hand and would only be worth playing if there's a decent shot of getting the nuts: ie AA, Ks4s, 45...etc.Emphasis: for me (my personal judgment of the risk/reward scenario), this is by no means a normal "flop a set on a dangerous board" hand. This is worse.
If that's your action towards playing small pairs and flopping sets, you probably shouldn't play poker.
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