112 replies to this topic

[Spademan]

Religious moderates: does it bother you that science is relentlessly pushing back religious nonsense one directionally, constantly and without pause? I realize that you've made concessions as time has gone by, and have apparently had little difficulty doing so. "Oh, the earth resolves around the sun? Well, God still did it, we just read it wrong.""Oh, the earth is older than 6000 years old and I'll look like a total idiot if I say it isn't? Well, my Holy text must have been metaphorical at that point.""Oh, prayer, unlike what it says in my scripture doesn't actually ever work? Well, thank god that he has inspired medicine to progress so that my child may live." "Oh, I'd be considered insane and go to prison if I actually killed people for working on the sabbath or taking the Lord my God's name in vain? Well, I guess Jesus kind of metaphorically implicated that I don't really have to do that any more, kind of, I guess. Heh. Heh." Now, I know that the percentages of those who claim to believe in the bible are remarkably high in the US, but I also know that a great many of that percent are saying it and not really believing it. That is to say, most "believers" I speak with usually end with, "Well, I just know there is something out there, I believe in a creator". They back off of any real association with any particular religion. Keeping this in mind, does the flood of understanding we are coming to put any strain on your belief?Or do you just keep the two totally separate? How many of you really believe in your particular Magic Zombies and rituals, and how many of you have reasoned out that those particular ancient texts are actually quite absurd and have simply retained your belief in a "higher power"?

[brvheart]

Spademan, on Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 8:52 PM, said:

Religious moderates: does it bother you that science is relentlessly pushing back religious nonsense one directionally, constantly and without pause? I realize that you've made concessions as time has gone by, and have apparently had little difficulty doing so. "Oh, the earth resolves around the sun? Well, God still did it, we just read it wrong.""Oh, the earth is older than 6000 years old and I'll look like a total idiot if I say it isn't? Well, my Holy text must have been metaphorical at that point.""Oh, prayer, unlike what it says in my scripture doesn't actually ever work? Well, thank god that he has inspired medicine to progress so that my child may live." "Oh, I'd be considered insane and go to prison if I actually killed people for working on the sabbath or taking the Lord my God's name in vain? Well, I guess Jesus kind of metaphorically implicated that I don't really have to do that any more, kind of, I guess. Heh. Heh." Now, I know that the percentages of those who claim to believe in the bible are remarkably high in the US, but I also know that a great many of that percent are saying it and not really believing it. That is to say, most "believers" I speak with usually end with, "Well, I just know there is something out there, I believe in a creator". They back off of any real association with any particular religion. Keeping this in mind, does the flood of understanding we are coming to put any strain on your belief?Or do you just keep the two totally separate? How many of you really believe in your particular Magic Zombies and rituals, and how many of you have reasoned out that those particular ancient texts are actually quite absurd and have simply retained your belief in a "higher power"?

You don't have any idea what the positions of an actual Christian are. You just assume that since extremist are blind that every Christian is a young earth believer. They are not. The Bible very easily works in an ancient Earth Christian viewpoint, like mine, and that includes God. There is nothing in the Bible that has been refuted by science and there never will be.Also you very very clearly have no understanding of basic Christian theology, since you are bringing stuff up from the Old Testament, and assuming that it should apply to Christians today. You may want to pick up a Bible and start reading around Matthew 5 or so. Stop after 1 John and report back.

[Spademan]

brvheart, on Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 7:13 PM, said:

You don't have any idea what the positions of an actual Christian are. You just assume that since extremist are blind that every Christian is a young earth believer. They are not. The Bible very easily works in an ancient Earth Christian viewpoint, like mine, and that includes God. There is nothing in the Bible that has been refuted by science and there never will be.Also you very very clearly have no understanding of basic Christian theology, since you are bringing stuff up from the Old Testament, and assuming that it should apply to Christians today. You may want to pick up a Bible and start reading around Matthew 5 or so. Stop after 1 John and report back.

You are staggeringly wrong in every single one of your assumptions. I would bring up responses to every one of your common and uninspired retorts but so many have obliterated them already that it's easier to simply refer to these thinkers.Read Sam Harris or Hitchens or... well, I'm sure you know them all.The psychotic god of the old testament isn't vindicated by the new testament, nor did the Zombie Jesus take back all of the blood thirsty yearnings of the old testament god. The bible, old or new, the koran, the book of mormon... all of them are literally laughable when it comes to claims about the natural world, cosmology and ethics. This is not up for debate.The only answer to the absurdities these days is cherry picking metaphor. Things that are absurd or downright vicious and disgusting are now "metaphor", and everything that is love or peace is literal.It is rationalization.Which is why there are so few actual believers today. Fundamentalists. People who actually exhibit behavior that indicates they actually believe that nonsense.These people are generally marginalized, thankfully.The rest fall between the spectrum of cherry picking, compartmentalizing apologists utilizing metaphorical rationalization - which is apparently where you reside - and those who have for all intents and purposes abandoned the texts themselves and are more of a deist now than a theist.

[BigDMcGee]

God this thread is going to get ugly quick.

[Spademan]

BigDMcGee, on Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 9:06 PM, said:

God this thread is going to get ugly quick.

*menacing laughter*

[vbnautilus]

brvheart, on Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 8:13 PM, said:

There is nothing in the Bible that has been refuted by science and there never will be.

This in itself is a problem. You have an unfalsifiable theory. If what you believe can never be shown to be wrong by observation it is dogma. Very dangerous mind virus that is. Once it goes in, it can never come out.

[BigDMcGee]

vbnautilus, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 1:48 AM, said:

This in itself is a problem. You have an unfalsifiable theory. If what you believe can never be shown to be wrong by observation it is dogma. Very dangerous mind virus that is. Once it goes in, it can never come out.

False

[brvheart]

Spademan, on Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

You are staggeringly wrong in every single one of your assumptions. I would bring up responses to every one of your common and uninspired retorts but so many have obliterated them already that it's easier to simply refer to these thinkers.Read Sam Harris or Hitchens or... well, I'm sure you know them all.The psychotic god of the old testament isn't vindicated by the new testament, nor did the Zombie Jesus take back all of the blood thirsty yearnings of the old testament god. The bible, old or new, the koran, the book of mormon... all of them are literally laughable when it comes to claims about the natural world, cosmology and ethics. This is not up for debate.The only answer to the absurdities these days is cherry picking metaphor. Things that are absurd or downright vicious and disgusting are now "metaphor", and everything that is love or peace is literal.It is rationalization.Which is why there are so few actual believers today. Fundamentalists. People who actually exhibit behavior that indicates they actually believe that nonsense.These people are generally marginalized, thankfully.The rest fall between the spectrum of cherry picking, compartmentalizing apologists utilizing metaphorical rationalization - which is apparently where you reside - and those who have for all intents and purposes abandoned the texts themselves and are more of a deist now than a theist.

I'm ready. Gimme a list.

vbnautilus, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 1:48 AM, said:

This in itself is a problem. You have an unfalsifiable theory. If what you believe can never be shown to be wrong by observation it is dogma. Very dangerous mind virus that is. Once it goes in, it can never come out.

I totally agree. I wasn't saying that I would not change my mind given solid evidence, but I didn't state that. The truth is... is that my belief is that it will never happen. It could. I just don't think it will.

[vbnautilus]

brvheart, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 10:09 AM, said:

I'm ready. Gimme a list.

http://www.reasonpro...ipture_project/

Quote

I totally agree. I wasn't saying that I would not change my mind given solid evidence, but I didn't state that. The truth is... is that my belief is that it will never happen. It could. I just don't think it will.

Fair enough.

[brvheart]

vbnautilus, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 1:15 PM, said:

http://www.reasonpro...ipture_project/

None of this shows any contridicting points about the natural world in the Bible. It's just the standard atheist nonsense about how they don't like God's perceived personality.

[Balloon guy]

vbnautilus, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

http://www.reasonpro...ipture_project/

I went to this site.Went to contridictions, clicked a couple.These were answered long ago, or are not even contridictions at all.The fact that they are listed in some manner as proof that the Bible contridicts itself lends me to want to ignor the rest of this guys postulations.Listing the examples of Israel killing people as some sort of terrible unknown action of violence is completely blind to reality of history.You would do better to at least present his best argument instead of expecting us to wade through his 1,800 'contridictions' and answer them again because he didn't want to put 1/10th the effort into finding truth as he did into finding errors that weren't there.

[vbnautilus]

Balloon guy, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 2:09 PM, said:

These were answered long ago, or are not even contridictions at all.

That's a contradiction! See, you have a high tolerance for them!

Quote

The fact that they are listed in some manner as proof that the Bible contridicts itself lends me to want to ignor the rest of this guys postulations.

They are not listed there as any sort of "proof" of anything. It's a reference work which catalogs the various issues with sacred texts.

Quote

You would do better to at least present his best argument instead of expecting us to wade through his 1,800 'contridictions' and answer them again because he didn't want to put 1/10th the effort into finding truth as he did into finding errors that weren't there.

Again, its just a resource, not a reasoned argument. The Reason Project is devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values, not to 'proving' anything. That said, if you want the founder Sam Harris's argument spelled out for you, you could start with "Letter To A Christian Nation", although you will find it infuriating, so I don't really recommend that you read it unless you are really curious.

[Balloon guy]

vbnautilus, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 2:19 PM, said:

That's a contradiction! See, you have a high tolerance for them!They are not listed there as any sort of "proof" of anything. It's a reference work which catalogs the various issues with sacred texts. Again, its just a resource, not a reasoned argument. The Reason Project is devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values, not to 'proving' anything. That said, if you want the founder Sam Harris's argument spelled out for you, you could start with "Letter To A Christian Nation", although you will find it infuriating, so I don't really recommend that you read it unless you are really curious.

Yea, the younger BG might go read his stuff, because I used to like to fight these battles.After fighting the same battle a hundred times, I now only fight them when I can enjoy insults and jokes during the debate.I suspect Harris takes himself so serious that he can't debate in this manner.Plus he's an idiot.Like Dawkins.Let's go back to the politics section and make fun of BigD and All_in

[BigDMcGee]

BigDMcGee, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 12:06 AM, said:

God this thread is going to get ugly quick.

[Plus one]

BigDMcGee, on Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

God this thread is going to get ugly quick.

No it wont, God loves you weather or not you want him/her to. Anyone who takes the bait and makes it ugly is just being condescending or purposefully wanting to start something which isnt being christianlike anyway. John 3:16 is the only relevant post in the bible anyway, everything else is just support.

[Sportsmack]

BigDMcGee, on Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

God this thread got boring quick.

[brvheart]

vbnautilus, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 4:19 PM, said:

Again, its just a resource, not a reasoned argument. The Reason Project is devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values, not to 'proving' anything. That said, if you want the founder Sam Harris's argument spelled out for you, you could start with "Letter To A Christian Nation", although you will find it infuriating, so I don't really recommend that you read it unless you are really curious.

His email debate with Andrew Sullivan was fun.

[BigDMcGee]

Plus one, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 6:48 PM, said:

No it wont, God loves you weather or not you want him/her to. Anyone who takes the bait and makes it ugly is just being condescending or purposefully wanting to start something which isnt being christianlike anyway. John 3:16 is the only relevant post in the bible anyway, everything else is just support.

Excellent point! I am also now sorry I took the time to answer a post of your seriously in the Socialism is wonderful thread.

[Plus one]

BigDMcGee, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 6:07 PM, said:

Excellent point! I am also now sorry I took the time to answer a post of your seriously in the Socialism is wonderful thread.

I hate to admit this but Im not gettin it. Was there supposed to be a SW here.

[Spademan]

brvheart, on Monday, June 29th, 2009, 1:02 PM, said:

None of this shows any contridicting points about the natural world in the Bible. It's just the standard atheist nonsense about how they don't like God's perceived personality.

lol