playing kings with 2 aces on the board

[Mattnxtc 0]

PokerRoom 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is MP3 with [Kc], [Ks]. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (9.50 SB) [7d], [Ah], [Jd] (4 players)UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.Turn: (6.25 BB) [Ad] (3 players)UTG checks, Hero checks, Button checks.River: (6.25 BB) [5h] (3 players)UTG checks, Hero checks, Button checks.Final Pot: 6.25 BButg: 16/11/.5button: 28/2/1

[bdc30 0]

I'd probably throw out a bet on the turn as well.If your hand was good on the flop, it's still good atthe turn. If raised, you can fold. If someone callstake the free showdown.

[Canada 0]

I don't mind shutting down on the turn.With 2 opponents calling the A high flop you would think one of them has the A or the flush draw.After the turn gets checked through and the UTG checks the river I think you need to bet once more

[fckthis 0]

Check turn, bet river.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Very passive opponents...So they call down with a lot of aces and a lot of jacks.I'm thinking bet/fold the turn, check/call the river is better than check turn, bet river.a) We give ourselves a chance to get away when UTG is going for a c/r, ensuring we're behind.b) We extract value when we're aheadc) The river check might induce Button to bluff his Jd) If they're super-passive, we *sometimes* get a free river when we're behind... but not so often from Button, whom I'm actually most worried about from his VP$IP.The biggest problem with that plan, of course, is when we're called on the turn and bet into by Button on the river. For the above reasons, I think the advantages outweigh it.

[Actuary 3]

horrible turn check.*** read replies ***hmm...like to see more.

[Mattnxtc 0]

i wasnt as worried about the guy in front of me. it was the guy behind me that worried me. He was a pretty tight player and his call made me question what he had which is why i checked the turn. My river line was goign to be c/c. The guy acting behind me wasnt staying in many hands and it worried me when he stayed in the hand

[Briguy 0]

I'd like to see a bet/fold line on that turn, especially with opponents who are passive postflop.

[Smasharoo 0]

Bet the river, the turn check is fine.

[Actuary 3]

Bet the river, the turn check is fine.

I thought the rule was to bet until shown aggression?I'm confused.Please explain

[screech 0]

Bet the river, the turn check is fine.

I thought the rule was to bet until shown aggression?I'm confused.Please explain

I'll try.Checking here is not dangerous because if we are ahead our opponents are drawing very slim. It may also induce a bluff/call on the river.If we're behind, checking and calling a turn bet costs us the same as bet/folding, except we get the chance to outdraw and we get to see sd.

[Actuary 3]

We are often not way aheadThere are 3 on board.These passive players aren't going to bluff us out of the best hand on the turn enough to hurt in long run, to bet/fold.We lose value to KQ (that hopes it has pair outs)any pocket pair calling downworse hands callnig without odds, etcI need more convincing.I could check behind on the river, thinking they might be so stupidly passive and were afraid of the flush, or hoping to c/r me.

[screech 0]

We are often not way ahead There are 3 on board.

I never even noticed that.I'll let smash explain because I'm bet/folding here too.

[pokerplayer24 0]

Vs passive opponents you need to bet this turn. If you're raised you can fold as you're either drawing to 4 outs to boat up vs a flush or to 2 K's vs trips.Vs aggressive opponents i'm checking it as i'd hate to get semi bluffed by Jx x or a PP with a

[Smasharoo 0]

I thought the rule was to bet until shown aggression?In six max.Full ring is more subtle in wa/WB situations like this.good luck.

[Smasharoo 0]

Vs passive opponents you need to bet this turn.Why?They're calling with A3o unless someone raises.You beat passive opponents by value betting good hands, not by betting marginal ones that have showdown value.

[pokerplayer24 0]

Vs passive opponents you need to bet this turn.Why?They're calling with A3o unless someone raises.You beat passive opponents by value betting good hands, not by betting marginal ones that have showdown value.

But if raised by a passive opponent on that board what kind of showdown value does your hand have.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Vs passive opponents you need to bet this turn. Why?  They're calling with A3o unless someone raises.  You beat passive opponents by value betting good hands, not by betting marginal ones that have showdown value.

If UTG has a weak ace and calls the turn, he checks the river UI and you can check behind (whether you'd want to is another story). If button just calls with his weak trip aces (unlikely for a 1AF with 28vpip, but possible), you probably lose the same too; regardless of whether you check/call the river or bet/fold after betting the turn. If you didnt bet the turn, he would with anything that beats you.

I'll try.  Checking here is not dangerous because if we are ahead our opponents are drawing very slim.

That's not true at all. There are 3 diamonds up there.What's especially bad about checking behind on the turn is that you give ANY diamond a free card to beat you (you do not have the king of diamonds here). Given how passive he is, you probably dont induce bluffs often at all.... but at the same time, they're not passive enough for you to fold to a single river bet if a non-diamond hits. They may occasionally make bets with a J here too if you check behind on the turn.I like checking the turn against aggressive/tricky opponents because you prevent yourself from folding winning hands to diamond semibluffs, and you encourage many more bluffs (or weak value bets that you have beat).

[Smasharoo 0]

That's not true at all. There are 3 diamonds up there.What's especially bad about checking behind on the turn is that you give ANY diamond a free card to beat you (you do not have the king of diamonds here).This only matters if you're ahead with 80% equity MOST of the time.Do you think that's the case here?What's USSUALLY the case is that you bet this turn, a single diamond calls, and a weak ace calls, and you're drawing to ONE out.

[Abbaddabba 0]

This only matters if you're ahead with 80% equity MOST of the time. Do you think that's the case here? What's USSUALLY the case is that you bet this turn, a single diamond calls, and a weak ace calls, and you're drawing to ONE out.

Ill ignore the fact that the board is paired and both your kings are live....But i think that you generally are ahead here.edit: and how are you handling it if after you check the turn, the button bets? Do you fold right there? Or do you call? Because if you intend to call down the whole way, you're losing less when raised (if you take this as proof that you're drawing to 2 cards) and losing the same when called by an ace that will bet the river when checked to. The difference is that you gain a lot from diamonds that call.

[Smasharoo 0]

But i think that you generally are ahead here. Yeah, two calls on this flop, turn diamond, I'm sure we're still way ahead and they both hav weak jacks.Likely.good luck

[Abbaddabba 0]

Jacks, small to mid pairs, straight draws and sometimes complete trash.I wouldnt want to be in the situation that he's in. But betting seems a whole lot better than checking against player that you can always safely fold to a raise against.You didnt answer the question though.If you check and the button bets, are you calling and calling any non-diamond river?

[Smasharoo 0]

If you check and the button bets, are you calling and calling any non-diamond river?Well, if I check, and button bets, I get to see what UTG does before I have to decide.If he raises folding is a lot better clearly. If he calls I'd seriosly consider folding there as well.I have middle pair.The fact that it's in my hand and not on the board doesn't make it any more likely it's good here.Your hand is about as good as KJ here, with the exception that you aren't drawing completely dead much.Would you bet KJ here?You should if you're betting KK.good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I'll agree that the difference is marginal (the fact that you hold a jack makes fewer combination of paired jacks remaining in the deck for them to hold, plus there's the issue of drawing live with kings, but that's pretty insignificant), but i would bet here with KJ no diamond anyways.Im still not convinced that you're behind here MOST of the time based on the action to justify the check.In hindsight if i knew that button would bet, i would say that a check is better, but you have no reason to believe that he will. You have no reason to believe that anyone has a hand here. There're just so many hands that i see people calling down with the whole way.

[Smasharoo 0]

There're just so many hands that i see people calling down with the whole way.Yeah like KK on this board because they can't let it go in a smallish pot.:)good luck.