14 replies to this topic

[Ricer98]

I've been at the table for a little over an hour now. I am playing very very LAG, raising every other hand at one point. The table was extremely tight 3 handed, and since filling up I am getting a ton of action. The villian is UTG and is starting to play aggressive in attempt to counteract my own. We tangle in two big hands before the hand in question. First Hand:Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)BB ($9.70)UTG ($14.51)MP ($6.56)Hero ($19.73)SB ($5.95)Preflop: Hero is Button with J, A. UTG raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25.Flop: ($1.45) 6h, 5d, Js (4 players)BB checks, UTG bets $1.45, MP folds, Hero calls $1.45, BB folds.Turn: ($4.35) 6s (2 players)UTG bets $4.35, Hero raises to $17.4, UTG calls $8.36 (All-In).River: ($29.77) Qd (2 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: $29.77Results in white below: UTG has Ah Ad (two pair, aces and sixes). Hero has Jd As (two pair, jacks and sixes). Outcome: Hero wins $34.46. With the villians aggression picked up substantially and him giving me no respect in a few smaller pots I really felt he was trying to run me out of the hand. He insta bet pot on the flop and turn, so i went with my read and shoved it. I still like the play, I think hes betting hands I beat there alot, I just got "unlucky" this time.Two Hands Later: Villian is SBUltimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button ($8.95)SB ($28.19)BB ($6.67)Hero ($10)MP ($5.90)Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, 8. Hero raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.30, 1 fold.Flop: ($1.15) 2, 4, K (3 players)SB bets $1.15, Hero calls $1.15, MP folds.Turn: ($3.45) T (2 players)SB bets $3.45, Hero calls $3.45.River: ($10.35) A (2 players)SB checks, Hero bets $5.05 (All-In), SB calls $5.05.Final Pot: $20.45Results in white below: SB has 9d Ks (one pair, kings). Hero has Ad 8d (flush, ace high). Outcome: Hero wins $20.45. Villian insta pots the flop into me, I just flat call figuring him to do the same on the turn. He abliges and insta pots the turn as well, once again I decided to just let him keep betting for me. This hand sort of reconfirms my feelings from the first hand that hes gonna try to run me out with weak holdings.About 10 Hands Later: (Convertor randomly stops working)Playing 5 HandedVillian ($23.74)Hero ($18.98)Hero is UTG with 7s7h, raises to $0.35Folded to Villian in the SB who calls, BB callsFlop: 2c 7c 5cVillian insta pots it for $1.05, BB fold, Hero???Well, first off there is no way I'm folding here. I'm torn between raising and flat calling. The obvious reason for flat calling is the villians betting history. Hes probably potting the turn with anything that caught the slightest piece of that board. On the other hand I don't like calling for the obvious reason that the board is very coordinated and my set is very vulnerable. If I raise though he will probably fold a ton of hands that he would continue to bet with as I haven't seen him get out of line calling much. Is slowplaying here worth the risk given we know the villian is overly aggressive?

[rdtedm]

Ricer98, on Tuesday, August 14th, 2007, 6:47 PM, said:

I've been at the table for a little over an hour now. I am playing very very LAG, raising every other hand at one point. The table was extremely tight 3 handed, and since filling up I am getting a ton of action. The villian is UTG and is starting to play aggressive in attempt to counteract my own. We tangle in two big hands before the hand in question. First Hand:Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)BB ($9.70)UTG ($14.51)MP ($6.56)Hero ($19.73)SB ($5.95)Preflop: Hero is Button with J, A. UTG raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25.Flop: ($1.45) 6h, 5d, Js (4 players)BB checks, UTG bets $1.45, MP folds, Hero calls $1.45, BB folds.Turn: ($4.35) 6s (2 players)UTG bets $4.35, Hero raises to $17.4, UTG calls $8.36 (All-In).River: ($29.77) Qd (2 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: $29.77Results in white below: UTG has Ah Ad (two pair, aces and sixes). Hero has Jd As (two pair, jacks and sixes). Outcome: Hero wins $34.46. With the villians aggression picked up substantially and him giving me no respect in a few smaller pots I really felt he was trying to run me out of the hand. He insta bet pot on the flop and turn, so i went with my read and shoved it. I still like the play, I think hes betting hands I beat there alot, I just got "unlucky" this time.Two Hands Later: Villian is SBUltimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button ($8.95)SB ($28.19)BB ($6.67)Hero ($10)MP ($5.90)Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, 8. Hero raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.30, 1 fold.Flop: ($1.15) 2, 4, K (3 players)SB bets $1.15, Hero calls $1.15, MP folds.Turn: ($3.45) T (2 players)SB bets $3.45, Hero calls $3.45.River: ($10.35) A (2 players)SB checks, Hero bets $5.05 (All-In), SB calls $5.05.Final Pot: $20.45Results in white below: SB has 9d Ks (one pair, kings). Hero has Ad 8d (flush, ace high). Outcome: Hero wins $20.45. Villian insta pots the flop into me, I just flat call figuring him to do the same on the turn. He abliges and insta pots the turn as well, once again I decided to just let him keep betting for me. This hand sort of reconfirms my feelings from the first hand that hes gonna try to run me out with weak holdings.About 10 Hands Later: (Convertor randomly stops working)Playing 5 HandedVillian ($23.74)Hero ($18.98)Hero is UTG with 7s7h, raises to $0.35Folded to Villian in the SB who calls, BB callsFlop: 2c 7c 5cVillian insta pots it for $1.05, BB fold, Hero???Well, first off there is no way I'm folding here. I'm torn between raising and flat calling. The obvious reason for flat calling is the villians betting history. Hes probably potting the turn with anything that caught the slightest piece of that board. On the other hand I don't like calling for the obvious reason that the board is very coordinated and my set is very vulnerable. If I raise though he will probably fold a ton of hands that he would continue to bet with as I haven't seen him get out of line calling much. Is slowplaying here worth the risk given we know the villian is overly aggressive?

Don't slowplay on this board. Raise hard, take control now.

[ah2388]

what do you do if another club comes later in the hand?take control of the hand, and force him to define his hand

[NoBBiR]

Raisey Daisy all daisy.

[Ricer98]

ah2388, on Tuesday, August 14th, 2007, 5:07 PM, said:

what do you do if another club comes later in the hand?take control of the hand, and force him to define his hand

Then I have an easy fold, letting the villian get there for free. The majority of the time a club doesn't hit though I have position on a very aggressive player. Who, I have a strong feeling is going to keep betting into me from past experiences. At which point, I make a pot sized raise and force him to put in more money with what I suspect is a worse hand a vast majority or the time. If I raise the flop I allow him to put less money into the pot to see the river. Thats my logic.

[rdtedm]

Ricer98, on Tuesday, August 14th, 2007, 8:07 PM, said:

Then I have an easy fold, letting the villian get there for free. The majority of the time a club doesn't hit though I have position on a very aggressive player. Who, I have a strong feeling is going to keep betting into me from past experiences. At which point, I make a pot sized raise and force him to put in more money with what I suspect is a worse hand a vast majority or the time. If I raise the flop I allow him to put less money into the pot to see the river. Thats my logic.

Your logic is flawed. This is only good if he accidentally shows you his hand and there's no club or draw in it.

[Ricer98]

rdtedm, on Tuesday, August 14th, 2007, 6:51 PM, said:

Your logic is flawed. This is only good if he accidentally shows you his hand and there's no club or draw in it.

First off, if this guy flopped a flush, hes getting my money every time unless a 4th club hits the board. He has show that he overplays hands on a consistant basis, I want to use that against him. Lets look at two senarios of the different plays I could take in this hand.Raise the flop: With his bet my pot sized raise would be $3.15 on top of his bet, so $4.20 total. Say he calls, pot is not 4.20 + 4.20 + 1.05 = $9.45. No club on the turn, I bet $9.45 into him, he calls, pot is $28.35. Now, lets say a club hits the turn, he fires , I'm forced to fold. Taking this line with a club hitting the turn cost me $4.55 total.Call the flop:Club hits the turn, I fold losing $1.40 in the hand. Club doesn't hit, villian bets pot, yes I realize this doesn't alway happen but given past actions I'd say it happens more times than not. This guy has allready doubled barreled into me with a 9 high flush draw. This bet would bet $3.15, at this point so I would repot him making it $12.60 total. If he calls pot is the same $28.35 going to the river. If he had air and folded as this point, I'd have won more than I would've folding him on the flop for a fairly small risk. If he calls, and isn't slowplaying still, I get the same amount of money in the pot going to the river( I was off in my thinking before, I just did a half ass in my head calculation/guesstimate). The only possible loss of value I see is if the villian bets less than the pot or checks to me on the turn. But, given my feel for his play at the table this doesn't happen very often unless he bet into me with absolute air, no pair no draw, on the flop. Heck I may even gain value later in the hand because common logic dictates, don't slow play top set on a 3 flush board with straight draws.

[shinzilla]

Just raise. The scenarios you laid out are iffy. You also slow played a monster hand earlier (the nut flush), so villain might see your raise as weak. Raising pwns calling. Stay away from FPS! Also, villain (from the hands you posted) seems like a pretty reasonable player. I don't dislike any of his plays (except calling the river in your nut flush hand). He instapotted it with a strong hand earlier; who's to say he isn't doing the same in this hand with a big hand too? We have to put in a raise here for value. P.S. I think the villain should've won that first hand in your post? Aces and sixes should beat jacks and sixes, right?

[potatoman]

Ricer98, on Tuesday, August 14th, 2007, 7:47 PM, said:

First off, if this guy flopped a flush, hes getting my money every time unless a 4th club hits the board. He has show that he overplays hands on a consistant basis, I want to use that against him. Lets look at two senarios of the different plays I could take in this hand.Raise the flop: With his bet my pot sized raise would be $3.15 on top of his bet, so $4.20 total. Say he calls, pot is not 4.20 + 4.20 + 1.05 = $9.45. No club on the turn, I bet $9.45 into him, he calls, pot is $28.35. Now, lets say a club hits the turn, he fires , I'm forced to fold. Taking this line with a club hitting the turn cost me $4.55 total.Call the flop:Club hits the turn, I fold losing $1.40 in the hand. Club doesn't hit, villian bets pot, yes I realize this doesn't alway happen but given past actions I'd say it happens more times than not. This guy has allready doubled barreled into me with a 9 high flush draw. This bet would bet $3.15, at this point so I would repot him making it $12.60 total. If he calls pot is the same $28.35 going to the river. If he had air and folded as this point, I'd have won more than I would've folding him on the flop for a fairly small risk. If he calls, and isn't slowplaying still, I get the same amount of money in the pot going to the river( I was off in my thinking before, I just did a half ass in my head calculation/guesstimate). The only possible loss of value I see is if the villian bets less than the pot or checks to me on the turn. But, given my feel for his play at the table this doesn't happen very often unless he bet into me with absolute air, no pair no draw, on the flop. Heck I may even gain value later in the hand because common logic dictates, don't slow play top set on a 3 flush board with straight draws.

In the first hand you mentioned, I don't really get the allin on the turn. He calls when he has you beat and folds otherwise. If you were worried about a King or queen falling, why not reraise the flop?To the main discussion - YOU RAISE THE FLOP. Your logic is flawed since you are looking at this only in terms of the chips you are putting in, and not the potential for winning additional chips for the ones you are putting at risk, not to mention the ones already in the pot. If he already has the flush, you can still redraw to a full house. If this guy is as dumb as you claim, I'd be looking to get all my money in with him as often as possible. The more chips in the middle, the better.

[nomad_monad]

i think it's unanimous - raise the flopi know what you're trying to go for here. but you're thinking a bit too much about villain's patterns without thinking about how you appear to him. after the first hand you posted, he's thinking, "Wow, duder really overplays TPTK, or maybe he chooses to turn it into a bluff sometimes?"after the second hand you posted, he's thinking, "Oh, he slowplays the nuts."understand - you look like just as much of a player that "plays backwards" to him as he does to you - i.e. you're blasting the pot with more marginal holdings but being passive with super strong ones.know his image, realize your own, and manipulate him into making a big mistake here by raising the flop. that big mistake of his would be 3 betting you.

[BuffDan]

Another argument for raising now is that if he doesn't have a club draw, but will stay in with a top pair type hand, because another club kills your action, not to mention makes you want to fold even when you have outs and could have the best hand. So let's get money in now, while we are still reasonably sure we have the best hand and have the best chance of getting paid off.

[Ricer98]

shinzilla, on Tuesday, August 14th, 2007, 8:38 PM, said:

Just raise. The scenarios you laid out are iffy. You also slow played a monster hand earlier (the nut flush), so villain might see your raise as weak. Raising pwns calling. Stay away from FPS! Also, villain (from the hands you posted) seems like a pretty reasonable player. I don't dislike any of his plays (except calling the river in your nut flush hand). He instapotted it with a strong hand earlier; who's to say he isn't doing the same in this hand with a big hand too? We have to put in a raise here for value. P.S. I think the villain should've won that first hand in your post? Aces and sixes should beat jacks and sixes, right?

From the hands I posted yes, he was taking this line about 1 once an orbit in a hand and getting away with it. I made 3-4 fairly tight folds against him before the AJ hand where I decided he can't alway be pushing big hands. Either way, I did raise the flop because of the reason someone else mentioned that I had slowplayed the nuts less than 10 hands earlier and wanted to mix up my play. Since the thought did cross my mind during the hand just thought I would bounce it off others.

[monkeywicked]

Everyone seems to be in favor of a raise on the flop. I'm not 100% convinced. I know I would certainly be tempted to do so, but after thinking it through, I think I'm leaning towards a smooth-call. My thoughts: The Villain either has A a dominated hand, like an overpair or bottom 2P, B a monster draw (13-15 outs), or C a flopped str8 or flush. If you reraise on such a scary board there's a good chance he'll fold A the single pair. Even if he thinks he's good, he might not risk his whole stack. After all, he just ran into the nut-flush and he might be gunshy. If he has B or C he'll probably reraise. Against B the Hero has about a 60% chance to hold on and win. Against C the hero has about a 30% shot to catch a boat. In the long-run, holding B or C the Villain will be in a slightly better position.If the Hero smooth-calls here, either a scary card or a safe card will hit the turn. If it's scary, a fourth club for example, the Hero can opt to fold or call down, keeping the pot/loss small. If it's safe card, the Hero can now raise knowing that only C has him beat. B, the big draw, will no longer be getting proper odds to call, but might be tempted to anyway, since the pot has gotten so large. Finally--and this seems most important to me--A, the marginal hand, might definitely get sucked in at this point. If the Villain potted it again on the turn and then got raised, he'll be feeling very committed. In the long run, it seems to me, the Hero will both save more money against a monster and win more money from a weak hand by smooth-calling on the flop.

[Sheiky]

Raise, not much point in calling when you'd have to fold to another club, if he's got a draw make him pay for it, if he's got top pair top kicker make him pay you off, either way you win money.Oh and if he flopped the nuts, then that's just plain unlucky.

[MR_BIZKITZ]

I would never flat call the flop with top set there.