a3s in the bb, flop play?

[KDawgCometh 2]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is BB with A:club:, 3:club:. MP1 posts a blind of $2. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: (8 SB) Q:club:, A:diamond:, J:diamond: (8 players)SB bets, what's my action?this is literally my first hand at the table, so no reads. is this a good place to raise PF, should I make the field call two cold here, or just look to call it down

[mk 11]

tpnk, backdoor f/d, with three cards in the playing zone. no reason to go to war with this hand on the flop, which is likely to happen. with 8 seeing the flop, this probably hit at least 1 or 2 people pretty hard. i might try to see the turn as cheaply as possible, but would be ready to let it go u/i.

[akishore 0]

i don't think you can raise this, both preflop or on the flop.i would say something like, "just call and just call one raise behind you depending on how many people are in", but what would you be calling that single raise behind you for? to hit two pair or trips that might not even be good by showdown? to a chase a 1.5 out backdoor flush draw? maybe all your draws combined are worth 2 - 3 outs at best (that's probably generous) in this eight-way pot.i think folding right then and there seems pathetically weak/tight, but won't be terrible if you can be reasonably sure someone will raise behind you (which they probably will because this is such an action flop).i can feel the flames coming on right here, but let's see if i can fight this battle.my vote goes for:- call if the table is very passive, to try to encourage people to call behind you.- fold if there is a decent chance that there will be a raise behind you.aseem

[Jordan 1]

I'd call. It's hard without a read, but with so many in the pot, I'd see their action first. If only a few come along for the ride and sb leads again on the turn I'd raise if it's a blank, or we improve any. If he 3 bets I'd have to re-evaluate.He could also have a weak ace, and if that's the case, we raise the turn, he may back off and make a poor fold or quit on the river.Sux not having any reads cause you have a lot to deal with behind.- Jordan

[DKE_XP120 0]

At first I thought raising preflop wasnt a good idea. But the more i look at it, its not so bad, if you raise here, you can get MP2-button to fold an Ax they might limp with with all the people calling. Which can clean up some kicker trouble if you run into an Ace on the flop.I still dont know about it though

[akishore 0]

At first I thought raising preflop wasnt a good idea. But the more i look at it, its not so bad, if you raise here, you can get MP2-button to fold an Ax they might limp with with all the people calling. Which can clean up some kicker trouble if you run into an Ace on the flop.I still dont know about it though

what??you're in the big blind, and it limps to you.you're saying raising will make people fold any hand for one bet more??aseem

[akishore 0]

i just want to emphasize what an action flop this is.even when no one's acted behind me, i am pretty sure there will be some good action on this flop.three broadways, two diamonds, wow.aseem

[princeof56k 0]

With a flop like this, you can be fairly certain that with 6 people left to act someone is going to raise. So if you just call, you're really planning on putting 2 small bets in if you plan on calling the raise. If you plan on putting two small bets in anyways why not just raise and take the lead? IMO, you either need to raise or fold.BTW, it seems like I've seen this situation before. On a flop like that with 7 people left to act, the SB probably at least has a pair of Aces. Even he has to know hes going to get raised on this flop. I cant see him betting a pair of Qs or even his draw (for fear of being raised). It just seems like when the SB limps in and bets on this flop he played Ax or hit 2 pair. I think hes bets here to see where hes at or he wants action.

[akishore 0]

while i agree that this is usually raise or fold, i think a call is in order in a passive game. your hand isn't strong enough to raise (you'll almost always get plenty of cold-callers behind you, and then you have pretty big reverse implied odds here...), but it's worth calling what you're confident will be just one small bet with a semi-decent hand.if the table's not passive, though, i think folding >>> raising.aseem

[JaysonWeber 0]

Im Raising the flop, Lots of Draws out there and I don't want too price them in, I figure one behind will probobly call anyways even though the price isn't right for a draw that he has, I'm praying for a rag on the turn although I might not need it, and I'm betting the turn as well.I raise here for isolation and to price them out.

[KDawgCometh 2]

my vote goes for:- call if the table is very passive, to try to encourage people to call behind you.- fold if there is a decent chance that there will be a raise behind you.aseem

we don't know the table conditions at all. If you read the post, then you'd know that this was my first hand at the table

[JaysonWeber 0]

Raise... Come on Guys... Quit overthinking/underthinking... You're raising here :meh:

[akishore 0]

we don't know the table conditions at all. If you read the post, then you'd know that this was my first hand at the table

my bad, i missed that.although this is a big pot, i think the reverse implied odds here just take over. add in the fact that this is such an action flop, and i don't mind folding here. calling isn't bad, but i do think raising is wrong.aseem

[akishore 0]

Raise... Come on Guys... Quit overthinking/underthinking... You're raising here :meh:

jayson, you really think you have the best hand right now? and if you don't, you think you can effectively protect your hand and not suffer any reverse implied odds?aseem

[DKE_XP120 0]

At first I thought raising preflop wasnt a good idea. But the more i look at it, its not so bad, if you raise here, you can get MP2-button to fold an Ax they might limp with with all the people calling. Which can clean up some kicker trouble if you run into an Ace on the flop.I still dont know about it though

what??you're in the big blind, and it limps to you.you're saying raising will make people fold any hand for one bet more??aseem

haha oh shit, I thought he was MP1 posting alreadyoppsl

[JaysonWeber 0]

Raise... Come on Guys... Quit overthinking/underthinking... You're raising here :meh:

jayson, you really think you have the best hand right now? and if you don't, you think you can effectively protect your hand and not suffer any reverse implied odds?aseem

Yes... If by Effectively you mean Profitably I do.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Well We have 9 SB's in the pot. We know that there are a lot of possible draws here.Looking back at the pre-flop action i'm going to not give anyone credit for 2 pair, possibly Q-J.. But I am more worried about the Flush Draw and the Straight Draw.By Raising here I make it 11 Sb's or 5.5 Big Bets in the pot and they are getting 1-5.5 on a call instead of 1-10.Now are the flush draws still priced in? Yeah they are but your still charging them and you're still isolating against someone else who would have something else. I could go further indepth as to why you're charging this price too a flush draw.Now are the straight draws priced in? No, They would have been... But they aren't anymore because we raised. They need 10.5-1 to call.. they had that if we smooth called.What about the other hands? The odds are that the flush draw is probobly not there anyways, we're pricing the other significant draw out of the way and anyone else with a different pair say J or Q are behind in the hand.So the only hand that can profitably call this Raise is a flushdraw, and a flushdraw like I said isn't something you should look for, They won't have the flush draw more often than they do. None of the other hands can profitably call this raise, but plenty of other hands will call one getting 1-10 or 11 on there money.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Possibly you could call the flop and look to raise or bet a safe-looking turn (assuming there's not heavy action on the flop), since a lot of 2/4 players will chase improperly on this flop.But that may be overplaying the hand, simply raising the flop is probably better.I'm not a big fan of weak suited aces normally, but with seven opponents I think I raise this PF. I think this is a spot where we wouldn't need to autobet the flop if we don't like it.

[JaysonWeber 0]

I'm not a big fan of weak suited aces normally, but with seven opponents I think I raise this PF. I think this is a spot where we wouldn't need to autobet the flop if we don't like it.

What is raising here going to gain?

[MrNiceGuy 0]

What is raising here going to gain?

I'm thinking there's tons of value in a PF raise here. Assuming everyone calls (which is usually what happens), we're getting 7-1 on the raise. And our odds of flopping the nut flush draw (or the nut flush itself) are almost 7-1, and with a bloated pot and this many opponents, we'll have tremendous implied odds when we do flop the flush draw. So, with this many players, I think a raise is worth it for the flush alone. But in addition, we could also win with a hand like two pair, or even win all or part of the pot with a pair of aces.

[JaysonWeber 0]

What is raising here going to gain?

I'm thinking there's tons of value in a PF raise here. Assuming everyone calls (which is usually what happens), we're getting 7-1 on the raise. And our odds of flopping the nut flush draw (or the nut flush itself) are almost 7-1, and with a bloated pot and this many opponents, we'll have tremendous implied odds when we do flop the flush draw. So, with this many players, I think a raise is worth it for the flush alone. But in addition, we could also win with a hand like two pair, or even win all or part of the pot with a pair of aces.

I was thinking of this on this specific hand, but I see your point this is a case where you could raise sometimes call sometimes... Good post and I do stand corrected, you could do that.I wonder just how profitable is it? but the fact that you have a straight draw, and a flush draw here you could infact make a mistake by not raising? Very interesting.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I'm pretty sure that raising Axs in this spot is considerably better than just checking, unless you have a weird player in EP that may LRR. With Kxs, it still might be worth a raise here in the BB, but I think it would be marginal.On the button, it'd probably still be worth raising with Axs, but I'm not as sure, because you give the blinds an opportunity to 3-bet and thin the field if one of them wakes up with a hand.

[screech 0]

Preflop - I'm not juicing this pot with Axs.I don't think folding this flop is an option. We have too many outs in this large pot. We also have a lot of hidden outs to split if someone has a hand like A7. I think the only hands we really have to worry about here are AT, AJ, QJ, and KT. Since we're up against 3 broadway cards, I think we should raise here to shut out the backdoor straight draws (there's probably a few out there). Hopefully, we can even get a few weak Queens or Jacks to fold as well.I like Aseem's analysis of if this is a passive table. But with no reads, I think we gotta raise here.

[akishore 0]

how many outs do we have exactly when we're behind?aseem

[wrto4556 0]

the pot is too big to call or fold.raising > folding > calling (imo)