brvheart, on Tuesday, June 30th, 2009, 11:51 AM, said:
Not really. The issue is that Spademan is claiming that I am wrong. I didn't start the thread. The burden is on him.
It wasn't an insult, it was an expression of frustration, because you were again begging the question. More on this below, because it comes up again and seems to be our main point of misunderstanding.
I agree with this, but the Bible is not a singular claim. It has 66 books written by 40 authors. These writers come from all walks of life (kings to fishermen) and spans over a period of 1,500 years or more. That is FAR from your 'example' of a of solitary claim by a random person.
First of all given the age of these writings all of these issues about the origin of the text are in question. But ignoring that, there are even more books written about UFO sightings, and those claims are just as unsubstantiated. The fact is that writing something down does not constitute good evidence that it happened. If it did, you would not only have to believe the bible, but also the koran, the vedas, and Dianetics.
I agree that it could get tedious, maybe not possible... but in my experience nearly every single one of your side's claims of falsehood, is as if God doesn't exist or has any effect on the situation. This is circlular and is impossible to argue a side, because in the Biblical world, God is there. God is involved.
This is a good crystallization of what the problem is. What you have here is a logical fallacy
. You are using the statement-to-be-proven as a premise in your argument. What you are saying amounts to "Since the bible is true, it must be true". We cannot in good faith examine the text to decide whether or not it is true with the requirement that we must already assume it to be true.
Crow could come in here and say, "The Bible says the sun stopped in the noon sky and didn't move for 24 hours. Not possible. Bible false." The problem is that for whatever reason he is forgetting that God is involved. Every single other religious text I have read has errors about the natural world that don't include a miracle from God.
You are just unwilling to extend those texts the same liberties you extend to the Bible. If every potential impossibility is explainable by a miracle then there is no possible way anything written in the bible could be accepted to be false by you. Let's say for example I uncover the passage which says "Carbon has an atomic number of 95". You can just say, well maybe it did back then because god temporarily made it that way before changing it! So in contrast to your comments yesterday, I do think you have a problem of unfalsifiability.
I have read the Koran, and the Book of Mormon. The Koran claims that the world is flat and that you can go to the edge. The Book of Mormon claims that Joseph Smith's plates were made of solid gold and gives their dimensions. Only problem, supposedly Joseph ran 3 miles carrying 240 pounds of gold while being chased, and then handed them to his mother through the kitchen window. I was in Utah last week, and many people said, "He had supernatural strength." Why then doesn't the Book of Mormon OR the church literature ever give the glory for that 'miracle' to God. (It's because they didn't realize until recently that it would have been impossible. The official church stance is now that the plates were a gold alloy)That is the only thing I'm asking of you guys. If the Bible is so obviously false, just show me one time where it's wrong about the natural world without God being involved. People have been trying for 2,000 years, and I suspect that they will keep trying.
If you use "god was involved" to get out of every contradiction you have a get-of-jail-free-card to play whenever you like.