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You start with 30,000 in chipsBlinds go up every 15 minutes (10 hands), they start at 25/50.At 0.16% of your chip stack to call, is there any hand I should fold pre-flop to no raise?I'm thinking "no" and looking for dissenting opinion. Last week I folded 36, 27, 39... all of which tripped on the flop. Not to be results oriented, but for 0.16% of my chip stack I missed a ton of opportunities.

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The question of whether or not you should play those hands shouldn't depend on your stack size, ever. Well, not never.However, would you even post something like this if you hadn't flopped big hands? Your post is inherently results oriented because those "oppurtunities" you spoke of are simply times where you could have played a very marginal hand, and gotten lucky.What are you gonna do w/ those hands when you call when there's no raise, and someone behind you raises... point made.

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Well, there are a lot of factors that you need to take into account beyond mere stack size. Position and opponent ability also matter a great deal.Additionally, I find that I can sometimes get into trouble playing these junk hands. Most of the time, I'll just pass on something like T4o in the SB, but every now and then, I complete, flop trip tens, and go down in flames to someone with a bigger kicker.

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Well, there are a lot of factors that you need to take into account beyond mere stack size. Position and opponent ability also matter a great deal.Additionally, I find that I can sometimes get into trouble playing these junk hands. Most of the time, I'll just pass on something like T4o in the SB, but every now and then, I complete, flop trip tens, and go down in flames to someone with a bigger kicker.
I consider one of my stronger assets in poker to be my ability to make (actual) good lay downs.Despite the first reply (smartass, thanks for not contributing) I'm really leaning towards playing just about anything.My post wasn't stating, "ZOMG I FOLDED 36os AND IT TRIPPED ON THE FLOP ---> I SHOULD PLAY 36os ALL THE TIME!!!111!1!1!!" it was more along the lines of "I folded in MP for 0.16% of my stack, which could give me some solid opportunities to double up on donks who can't let go of TPTK and certainly not overpair".Again, I'm leaning towards playing any 2 cards here and am looking for reasons not to.Thanks for your constructive reply Cobalt =).
The question of whether or not you should play those hands shouldn't depend on your stack size, ever. Well, not never.However, would you even post something like this if you hadn't flopped big hands? Your post is inherently results oriented because those "oppurtunities" you spoke of are simply times where you could have played a very marginal hand, and gotten lucky.What are you gonna do w/ those hands when you call when there's no raise, and someone behind you raises... point made.
Then you fold 0.16% of your stack. If it's a min raise then you can call 0.32% of your stack total.If it's 4 times the BB and I have something sneaky like 56 suited, I'll call for 0.64% of my stack.To get away from being results oriented... if I make a big hand against TPTK, I'm going to get paid HUGE since 75% of these donks cannot get away from it.Thanks for the constructive reply.
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I agree. I play a similar style in most home games when:-there are very rarely any raises preflop-You get paid off big when you do hitYou just need to be able to lay down a big hand when you are beat.

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Thanks for the constructive responses.Just some facts about these guys.1. Hands go to SD about 90% of the time.2. PF raising is generally manageable or non-existant3. Calling raises with K7os is acceptable.4. You can get about 10 hands in per blind structure and they go up very fast.5. Bluffing is not an option.The game is tomorrow and at least for the first 2-3 rounds of blinds I'll be playing any two.

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i read the top and havent scrolled down yet.I hope you realise how hard it is to lay down 3, 6 on a board of 3,3,10 when someone raises your bet or whatever..and then what? they turn A,3 or 10,10 because with blinds this low people will limp with almost any ace.My suggestion to you is raise. limp with crap if you want, but i'm raising with suited connectors, and ace,X suited. if i hit my straights or flushes i wanna get paid for them.stay away from K,x or Qx thats lower than 10. its just trouble. You should be more inclined to wanna see a flop with a J,9 rather than a K,8 etc..good luck

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i read the top and havent scrolled down yet.I hope you realise how hard it is to lay down 3, 6 on a board of 3,3,10 when someone raises your bet or whatever..and then what? they turn A,3 or 10,10 because with blinds this low people will limp with almost any ace.My suggestion to you is raise. limp with crap if you want, but i'm raising with suited connectors, and ace,X suited. if i hit my straights or flushes i wanna get paid for them.stay away from K,x or Qx thats lower than 10. its just trouble. You should be more inclined to wanna see a flop with a J,9 rather than a K,8 etc..good luck
I don't like raising here except for with the most premium of hands QQ, KK or AA. Everything else will land you an assload of callers and you'll never be sure they don't two-pair on ya even if you have TPTK.
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I don't like raising here except for with the most premium of hands QQ, KK or AA. Everything else will land you an assload of callers and you'll never be sure they don't two-pair on ya even if you have TPTK.
This is exactly why you're asking for help."dont raise, they call anything".that is the dummest thing i've heard, and fortunately, i hear that a lot which is why i make money playing.cheers and good luck
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I don't like raising here except for with the most premium of hands QQ, KK or AA. Everything else will land you an assload of callers and you'll never be sure they don't two-pair on ya even if you have TPTK.
I really don't like this advice.
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This is exactly why you're asking for help."dont raise, they call anything".that is the dummest thing i've heard, and fortunately, i hear that a lot which is why i make money playing.cheers and good luck
I know what you are saying, and I understand the theory completely. You are saying "get your money in when you have the edge." That's all fine and good, and that's your answer to bad-weak callers. That's not my answer. I'm looking to capitalize on mistakes which means I need to see more flops with any two and get A 10 to call my 43 when the flop is 33A, and snipe buy-ins, not a measily 5% equity edge. I'm looking to get my edge to 100% and theirs to 0%, where you are looking to get your edge to 55% and theirs to 45%. There simply aren't enough hands in this tournament to capitalize on a 5% equity edge. Different strokes. What happens when you have AK, you raise up properly and get 5 callers? You just wasted money when the flop doesn't hit (70% of the time you are donating money). You are generating exactly 0 fold equity. The alternative is to limp in with 5 callers, catching your A on the flop (A95) and laughing all the way to the front of the tournament when A10 calls your all in. Alternatively if you don't hit your flop, you can let it go. If you don't like the texture of the flop, you can let it go. You have to realize that your pre-flop play is *almost* meaningless in a game where 90% of the hands go to showdown and people will call significant raises with any 2.
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I know what you are saying, and I understand the theory completely. You are saying "get your money in when you have the edge." That's all fine and good, and that's your answer to bad-weak callers. That's not my answer. I'm looking to capitalize on mistakes which means I need to see more flops with any two and get A 10 to call my 43 when the flop is 33A, and snipe buy-ins, not a measily 5% equity edge. I'm looking to get my edge to 100% and theirs to 0%, where you are looking to get your edge to 55% and theirs to 45%. There simply aren't enough hands in this tournament to capitalize on a 5% equity edge. Different strokes. What happens when you have AK, you raise up properly and get 5 callers? You just wasted money when the flop doesn't hit (70% of the time you are donating money). You are generating exactly 0 fold equity. The alternative is to limp in with 5 callers, catching your A on the flop (A95) and laughing all the way to the front of the tournament when A10 calls your all in. Alternatively if you don't hit your flop, you can let it go. If you don't like the texture of the flop, you can let it go. You have to realize that your pre-flop play is *almost* meaningless in a game where 90% of the hands go to showdown and people will call significant raises with any 2.
:club: No. I didnt say that at all actually. I'm not saying get money in with an edge, if u look at my posts througout all 6 thousand of them, my serious ones are always in favor of folding rather than gambling with luck.What i'm saying is you have a hell of a lot of chips with low blind to stack ratioIf you're raising with only premium hands, who is calling you post flop unless they hit what they hoped for?Do you see where i'm going with this?you have 30,000. you raise to 1000 with AA, thats pretty big, and lets say you actually get called.flop is rag rag rag, and you assume aces are still strong, you make a pot sized be of lets say 2500.he raises you to 8000, and now you're faced with a stupid decision not having the slightest clue what he holds.How did this happen? well it happend because the Villain can call a 1k raise without worrying too much.he puts you on some big cards and he ends up hitting 2 pair 9's and 10's on the rag flop of 3,9,10 (which looks safe to you)Now, lets go over raising preflop.when we raise, we do so to help build a pot, to help knock out a few players to increase our chance of winning aaand...to give a image of strength and dominance of that particular hand.we dont have to be the big stack at the table to let everyone know. "back off, this is my hand bitches"so you get called by a KQ suited, or even a mid PP. etc...they are lookin to hit their flushes, straights, 2 pair, and sets...More often than not, they miss, and our raise preflop, is now looking better and better, because we can bet out post flop even with nothing and win the hand.we've established a table image for that hand that we hold something strong.If we do so with a hand like 8,9 and the flop is 7,10,J its very very difficult to put us on 8,9 since we raised preflop.But because the stacks are so huge, raising from 0.16% to 1% of your stack isnt a big deal, infact its a very little deal.so i would suggest mixing up your play is crucialAgain - raising is never wasting - mix up our play - limping isnt slow playing and slow playing isnt creative - only raising with strong hands is easy to figure out, from your opponents perspective
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Now, lets go over raising preflop.when we raise, we do so to help build a pot, to help knock out a few players to increase our chance of winning aaand...to give a image of strength and dominance of that particular hand.we dont have to be the big stack at the table to let everyone know. "back off, this is my hand bitches"
The point I am making is that1. We won't knock anyone out of the pot pre flop.2. People are calling down with middle pair/drawing to gutshots etc.3. You can NEVER even have a remote idea of what your opponent is holding unless it's one of the 4-5 dudes who actually know how to play.Again, I understand completely what you are getting at and what is supposed to happen in theory, but at this tourny your chances of winning are expressly dependent on your ability to extract money from winning hands.Let me give you a prime example of how bad some of these people are. This was my first game with them and I was still figuring them out.I have AQ suited in MP. UTG and UTG+1 limp. UTG+2 folds to me and I raise 4-5 x BB. Dude on my left raises double what I raised. Folds around. UTG goes all-in. Is there a worse move... ever?UTG+1 folds and I tank. I had just gotten off a long speach about how I'd let AQ go pre flop, but AK I will not (I just coin flipped relatively early AK vs 88 and won, got some **** for it). But I had seen this kid in action. He made terrible look good.I decide to reach into my limited satchel of "tell reading" skills and notice dude to my left has "folding hands" and I then look at UTG. He is staring right at me... I quickly call... dude to my left folds. He flips over A6 and I couldn't be happier.BTW: I am not saying to constantly limp because it's slow playing, I'm saying to constantly limp so that you can extract value post-flop once you make a strong hand for cheap. I will raise when I know I am crushing pre-flop (QQ,KK,AA).
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The point I am making is thatblah blah blah...
"yuhjdsagduysgwk hkjsytuw" I just threw a copy of Super Systems on my keyboard and it makes more sense than youHere is a tip. Stop playing poker because you have a horrible attitude for the game.You do not understand it very well, and you are probably more comfortable in a party poker chat box complaining about online being rigged and aces always lose.You really arent listening to yourself, talkin about raising with anything less than AAKKor QQ being pointless because you get lots of callers etc...That is honestly the most insanely idiotic thing i've heard.You really have no clue how to win these tourneys because you've given yourself this crazy idea that they are impossible to win unless u have some sort of jedi strategyThis thread is making everyone dummer for having read it.
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Criticism and flames would be acceptable and warranted if you actually provided any sort of information to the contrary, which you haven't. If you are willing to quantify and verify why raising with only QQ,KK and AA is a bad idea at *this* specific tournament, then maybe I'd concede to a coherent post instead of a flame-infested ,self-stroking, self-important, cacophany of bullshit that was posted above.It almost seems unfair because I am very familiar with these players and you are not, and I could, but am not going to, come in here and change the story just to make my e-peen look huge and make you look stupid.But in all honesty your recommendations do not work for these players and you cannot explain to me in concrete terms why it does work. All you've thrown at me are hypotheticals that do not apply to my situation (raising to isolate, for example).I will go on to state that it's also failure on your part to recognize the parameters of the game I laid down (the posts you skimmed), as well as the fact that raising with JJ becomes bad in a pool of callers for the same reason 55 is a **** hand unless you can isolate.22-JJ are garbage if you don't hit your set and have 5 callers. Next time you're at home stroking your e-p33n maybe you should look at the percentages of 55 vs AK vs J9 all in the same hand. It does not look good for 55, and it gets worse with more limpers. This is true for JJ in a 5 way pot. Your only chance is to hit a set. If you followed me this far then you understand why limping is good. You're trying to hit your set 1:7.5 times, therefore you want to get there as cheap as possible. As I said before your success in this situation is a function of your ability to extract money POST FLOP since people will be calling with nearly any 2.

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Thank you Zach, hehe some peoples kids.Tell you what, do a search on tables with call stations and donks, where you get 6 or 7 people to a flop.and find out what people are saying to do.Your situation is nothing new. Its rather ridiculous to listen to you talk about small stack plays for this type of tourney.raising with AAKKand QQ and limping with everything else is perfect example of small stack poker.Havent you noticed why no one else is replying in this thread? because you are bashing advice that wil work in these situations.Try and play in a negreanu open 1 night, and see how much more difficult it is compared to you donk fest.trust me, its waaay more challenging playing players with skill. Oh and while ur at it, check tonights Negreanu Open results. you'l notice i was at the final table. :club:

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As I've said numerous times I'd be willing to listen if he posted something applicable to the situation. He has not yet done so.

Thank you Zach, hehe some peoples kids.Tell you what, do a search on tables with call stations and donks, where you get 6 or 7 people to a flop.and find out what people are saying to do.Your situation is nothing new. Its rather ridiculous to listen to you talk about small stack plays for this type of tourney.raising with AAKKand QQ and limping with everything else is perfect example of small stack poker.Havent you noticed why no one else is replying in this thread? because you are bashing advice that wil work in these situations.Try and play in a negreanu open 1 night, and see how much more difficult it is compared to you donk fest.trust me, its waaay more challenging playing players with skill. Oh and while ur at it, check tonights Negreanu Open results. you'l notice i was at the final table. :club:
Your advice talks about two things...1. Isolation2. Generating fold equityAnd I'm trying to politely tell you that these two points are moot unless you have an extremely strong pre-flop hand (QQ,KK, AA), you are going to show down. You will have not isolated, and you will have not generated fold equity. Let's assume for a moment that no matter what you raise up to 10% of your stack, will attract several callers. Let's also assume that any pocket pair is going to push all-in. Let's also assume that you generate no fold equity with pre flop play and that you showdown 90% of the time. This isn't your typical donk-fest, this is much worse. In this situation, the playstyle you advocate is just donating money.I'm not sure why it's so difficult to imagine a situation in which all profits to be made in game are made post flop. If you make a strong hand you will absolutely get paid.EDIT: Just found this link to another threadhttp://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...opic=53493&st=0There are several people advocating exactly what I was suggesting. Even as rude as some of you have been, I'm not going to say you're wrong and that your ideas won't work, but I will say that it certainly is not the only way to thrive in a donkfest of this magnitude.
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As I've said numerous times I'd be willing to listen if he posted something applicable to the situation. He has not yet done so.Your advice talks about two things...1. Isolation2. Generating fold equityAnd I'm trying to politely tell you that these two points are moot unless you have an extremely strong pre-flop hand (QQ,KK, AA), you are going to show down. You will have not isolated, and you will have not generated fold equity. Let's assume for a moment that no matter what you raise up to 10% of your stack, will attract several callers. Let's also assume that any pocket pair is going to push all-in. Let's also assume that you generate no fold equity with pre flop play and that you showdown 90% of the time. This isn't your typical donk-fest, this is much worse. In this situation, the playstyle you advocate is just donating money.I'm not sure why it's so difficult to imagine a situation in which all profits to be made in game are made post flop. If you make a strong hand you will absolutely get paid.
DUDE!, that link is for a completely different situation, he is talking about a single table with normal size stacks to blind ratio, and increasing blinds which leaves him with little options, Your tourney is the complete oppositewhat you fail to understand is that you have a lot of chips. You can play a lot of hands differently in a lot of different circumstances.And if what you say is true, that you will always go to showdown, then i hope you arent serious about needing AA,KK or QQbecause in a ful ring, without hitting a set, these will not hold up vs multiple playerswhich is why i'm telling you to raise with random hands so when you raise with a 10,J and you make a straight, you are getting paid off for it.You have 30k. with blinds at 50/100 thats still really ridiculous.If you honestly believe that a preflop raise will not give you any Fold equity than you should stop playing post flop poker, and focus on flop only poker, wait for hands, Raise really big preflop. if you get called, push on the flop if its safe and win the hand, or double up.By not raising preflop, and limping with everything you are not getting paid off for you big flushes staright or boats.because who is willing to call a big river bet if they have a mediocre hand? its not a cash game, its a MTTYou idea is basically hoping that when you hit a boat on the river, that someone will have made a flush, and you can get paid off.Waiting for such situations is luck dependant, and a very poor way to play
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what you fail to understand is that you have a lot of chips. You can play a lot of hands differently in a lot of different circumstances.And if what you say is true, that you will always go to showdown, then i hope you arent serious about needing AA,KK or QQbecause in a ful ring, without hitting a set, these will not hold up vs multiple playerswhich is why i'm telling you to raise with random hands so when you raise with a 10,J and you make a straight, you are getting paid off for it.You have 30k. with blinds at 50/100 thats still really ridiculous.If you honestly believe that a preflop raise will not give you any Fold equity than you should stop playing post flop poker, and focus on flop only poker, wait for hands, Raise really big preflop. if you get called, push on the flop if its safe and win the hand, or double up.
I agree for the most part. With AA, KK , QQ I would be putting in HUGE raises or Smashin' it up with an all-in... people will call with 33/KQ/QJ etc.Certainly it's worth getting involved in a lot of hands for as cheap as the blinds are.The situation described in the above-linked thread is pretty accurate. Your comment actually was applicable to my situation.
See cheap flops, etc... is great advice, even if u hold crap., if its cheap. see it.also dont make any preflop raises from early positions (unless its a big hand) cuz you are liable to be pushed off it.and finally, wait for good cards and make your stand preflop, at least once. Pray that you are goin into the board as a 2 to 1 fav or better and hope it holds.its hard to win hands in these things post flop, i wouldnt get cute at anytime, and always, always try to maximize your pots.if u think u have the best hand, get your money in.
It's funny that you offer the above advice for the same situation, then come down on me for saying the same thing. Those are your words, just so everyone reading the thread knows. The situation you are commenting on is almost identical.I certainly will concede that you are advocating raising with marginal hands with position, and that's something it seems you have been consistant on with both posts. But everything else... I dunno, pretty night-and-day.Cheers.
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DUDE!, that link is for a completely different situation, he is talking about a single table with normal size stacks to blind ratio, and increasing blinds which leaves him with little options,Your tourney is the complete oppositeMasterLJI'm goin to dig up an old thread on playing agianst multi opponents who wont fold.i will post it later when i have a chance.

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