Jman28 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Firstly, Daniel, if you're reading this, it was an honor to play with you. You are an amazing poker player and a great guy. I meant to tell you that before I left (I was the 21 yr old who busted 18th wearing a black Redskins hoodie). I also meant to ask you about this hand that we played earlier. Congrats on winning it all too.I posted it at 2+2, and got a lot of responses, and a friend suggested I post here to get your thoughts. You can also check out the thread there. I'm sure people would love to hear your line of thinking. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...n=0&page=0&vc=12006 circuit event in Tunica. It's day two I think. I have about 28k chips and Daniel has about 60k. Blinds are 200/400 with a 50 ante, or something like that. Daniel and I had been at the same table for less than an hour. Each of us raised a wide range of hands when folded to. Daniel defended his blind with a wide range as well.Folded to me on the button with ATo, I raise to 1100, which is my standard raise this level. Daniel is in the BB and calls.I know Daniel's call means top 60-70% of hands (minus the top 5% or whatever that would reraise). He knows my raise means top 80-90% of hands. Each of us knows that the above is common knowledge between us, if that makes sense.Daniel also knows that I continuation bet over 70% of the time when checked to in a HU pot.Daniel sees so many flops, and hasn't been caught bluffing, but I'm sure he bluffs often, since he fights for most pots he's in.Flop 99Tr. (t2850)Daniel checks, I bet 2k, Daniel minraises to 4k. I call.Turn 7. (t10850)Daniel bets 5k, I call.River 3. (t20850)Daniel bets 8k, I call.So, how'd I play it? And what do you put him on? Link to post Share on other sites
AceyDucey 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I think you played it kinda weakly.Just calling along the whole way.Id put DN on 10/8 or a draw of some sort.But you never really put any pressure back on him to define his hand so its hard to tell. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Seems an awful lot like DN had a hand like JT, QT or KT and gave you no credit for the 9. I don't mind the way you played it though. If you re-raise the flop or turn he's probably coming over the top with another raise and then you likely have to fold, since his hand range is so wide from the blinds.I could see JJ, QQ playing this hand the same way. Then again I could see a 88 or 77 doing the same. Seeing as how you C-Bet almost every flop when check to, he might put you on a hand like KQ, QJ, AQ, AJ, etc, though probably QJ. I'd guess he was valuebetting TP. My diagnosis would be that that he had a hand like KT, thought you had overs or a smaller suited connecter type hand(87s maybe?), he probably had KT, and I think you played it fine. I don't mind pushing the turn, you have to call the river though. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I think you played it kinda weakly.Just calling along the whole way.Id put DN on 10/8 or a draw of some sort.But you never really put any pressure back on him to define his hand so its hard to tell.If you put him on a draw, you should call the flop and lead a safe turn for a big raise/bet. I don't think with a hand range as undefined as DN's likely is, that you can say it was a draw any more often than it was a hand like J9 or K9. Link to post Share on other sites
Jman28 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 Seems an awful lot like DN had a hand like JT, QT or KT and gave you no credit for the 9. I don't mind the way you played it though. If you re-raise the flop or turn he's probably coming over the top with another raise and then you likely have to fold, since his hand range is so wide from the blinds.I could see JJ, QQ playing this hand the same way. Then again I could see a 88 or 77 doing the same. Seeing as how you C-Bet almost every flop when check to, he might put you on a hand like KQ, QJ, AQ, AJ, etc, though probably QJ. I'd guess he was valuebetting TP. My diagnosis would be that that he had a hand like KT, thought you had overs or a smaller suited connecter type hand(87s maybe?), he probably had KT, and I think you played it fine. I don't mind pushing the turn, you have to call the river though.I like your analysis. A couple thoughts:If he puts me on a hand like QJ, let's say (and he has TP) why not bet harder on the flop or turn to not give me odds to call? EDIT: the turn mostly, since my hand range is so wide on the flop.And why not check to me on the river and let me bluff? (To avoid a tough decision and being bluffed off the best hand, I know) Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I like your analysis. A couple thoughts:If he puts me on a hand like QJ, let's say (and he has TP) why not bet harder on the flop or turn to not give me odds to call? EDIT: the turn mostly, since my hand range is so wide on the flop.Meh, he might've put you on a bad ace or a hand like KJ where it was a bit irrelevant--where he wanted you to come along. At which point he figured he'd milk you until a card like, say, a K or an A came. I think it's one of those things where he's taking control on the flop to control the size of the pot on the turn. He has a hand but it's vulnerable and he doesn't want the pot to get so bloated that he has to call all your chips on the river with a bad T.And why not check to me on the river and let me bluff? (To avoid a tough decision and being bluffed off the best hand, I know)Though you did kind of play it passively, he thought it might've got checked behind if he did. That you'd check behind with A high or some such. It's a blocking bet, in a way, too. He knows you can only come over the top on the river with a straight(maybe not even then) or a boat(maybe a naked 9), which it seems like he's giving you credit for neither. Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckSty 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 yeah i have to agree that this is an interesting hand. All this being said i think DN could be on a wide variety of hands. anything from qq to j9. I am really interested to know what he had. i think Drawing Dead covered the most likely scenarios quite nicely. oh also Erik now that you and your chick are done and she hates you you can move to Vegas and lay with the flock. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 yeah i have to agree that this is an interesting hand. All this being said i think DN could be on a wide variety of hands. anything from qq to j9. I am really interested to know what he had. i think Drawing Dead covered the most likely scenarios quite nicely.You think J9? I think he plays a draw more aggressively. oh also Erik now that you and your chick are done and she hates you you can move to Vegas and lay with the flock.Not much cash flow since my identity was stolen. I hope to be there over the WSOP, though. Link to post Share on other sites
ziggy587 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I would guess that this was the "Slowplayed Pocket Q's" hand that Daniel gave us an update on..... Link to post Share on other sites
Jman28 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 I would guess that this was the "Slowplayed Pocket Q's" hand that Daniel gave us an update on.....It isn't. Also, if he had QQ, I don't think this line totally qualifies as a slowplay.You think J9? I think he plays a draw more aggressively.Well, J9 would be made trips, but I guess you meant QJ or something like that? J8 gets there on the turn. Anyways, the effective stack sizes make playing a draw aggressively here difficult out of position. If he raises more on the flop with a draw, he has a tough situation on the turn if he misses. Link to post Share on other sites
ricker 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I think you calling him down had him real confused. You first raise on the button, and he calls. He checks, and you bet around the pot and he miniraises you. I think that looks like he just wants to take control of the betting. His turn bet of half the pot should tell you he has a made hand. If he woke up with jack 8 in the BB power to him, but I can't see him checking that flop. You being an agresssive player he has to expect you to bet a draw like QJ.I doubt he's on a draw. He took control of the betting on the flop and continued betting into you on the turn. Most likely, he has a pocket pair and puts you on face cards, or he has a ten with a weakish kicker. My guess is he's relying on you folding to his turn bet. His 8 k bet into a pot of 20k or so screams informational bet to me. I actually don't see it as a value bet. This bet creates two options for you in the senario DN has built in his head. You have QJ and were on a draw the entire way. OR, you also have a ten but a weaker kicker than his and he can make you lay it down by betting half your stack. He's deep stacked and has you outchipped. Now, what ended up happening? Link to post Share on other sites
kouta43 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 so what did he have?he played it a lil like a 9 with the min raise and all but being the player he is he was probably trying to respresent this sort of hand but indeed had nothing like it. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I would guess that this was the "Slowplayed Pocket Q's" hand that Daniel gave us an update on.....It isn't. Also, if he had QQ, I don't think this line totally qualifies as a slowplay.You think J9? I think he plays a draw more aggressively.Well, J9 would be made trips, but I guess you meant QJ or something like that? J8 gets there on the turn. Anyways, the effective stack sizes make playing a draw aggressively here difficult out of position. If he raises more on the flop with a draw, he has a tough situation on the turn if he misses.Whoops, yeah, J8. But, I think from his point of view, it'd make sense to play a hand like J8 or QJ aggressively. You can't call a big bet or get invovled in a big pot without that 9. And even if you do decide to play a big pot with TPTPK he's got 8 solid outs. I think we can agree he's not giving you credit for trips/boat or even a straight really. And as DN tends to like to keep the pressure on, I think he'd push the turn a little more strongly than he did with an OESD(regardless of it getting there) attempting to get you to come along with overcards or a bad Ten, thinking he's bluffing.Or do you disagree? I think he really played this hand like he had the ten. I don't think the 9 makes sense--I think he would've smooth called the flop and maybe let you try and hang yourself. I think he plays an OESD either very passively(check/call the flop, bet the turn when it hits), or fast and loose(check/raise the flop, lead the turn larger).I just think he played this like he's got TP or an overpair--you said it wasn't QQ. I'd say KT.I might have to shoot over to 2+2 and find out. Heh. Congratulations on your finish, by the way. Good work. Link to post Share on other sites
Jman28 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 His 8 k bet into a pot of 20k or so screams informational bet to me. I actually don't see it as a value bet. This bet creates two options for you in the senario DN has built in his head. You have QJ and were on a draw the entire way. OR, you also have a ten but a weaker kicker than his and he can make you lay it down by betting half your stack.There are no more streets to get information for after his 8k bet. Maybe I use the term differently than you.If I have a T with a weaker kicker than his (assuming he has a T) why would he want me to lay it down?Does anyone think that a river bet of this size could be a bluff by DN? Link to post Share on other sites
Jman28 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 I think we can agree he's not giving you credit for trips/boat or even a straight really. And as DN tends to like to keep the pressure on, I think he'd push the turn a little more strongly than he did with an OESD(regardless of it getting there) attempting to get you to lay down percieved overcards(or even top pair).Or do you disagree?I didn't really know all that much about DN's tendencies at the time. I agree that a larger turn bet on a draw would be better.Congratulations on your finish, by the way. Good work.Thank you. It was actually really dissapointing getting that close and then going card dead on the last day. Maybe next time. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I didn't really know all that much about DN's tendencies at the time. I agree that a larger turn bet on a draw would be better.Yeah, I edited my original post factoring in the fact that both open enders hit--forgive me, I'm sicker than a dog today.I think all signs are pointing to TP or overpair--at least to me. I definitely concede that might be different sitting at the table, too.Thank you. It was actually really dissapointing getting that close and then going card dead on the last day. Maybe next time.Yeah, there's always next time. Either way though, nothin' to shake a stick at. Tunica's a fun little town, eh? Heh. Link to post Share on other sites
Jman28 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 Yeah, I edited my original post factoring in the fact that both open enders hit--forgive me, I'm sicker than a dog today.heh. Try one more time. QJ missed. I've had those days too.Yeah, there's always next time. Either way though, nothin' to shake a stick at. Tunica's a fun little town, eh? Heh.It was fun. I met some really cool people. Too much smoking though. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Yeah, I edited my original post factoring in the fact that both open enders hit--forgive me, I'm sicker than a dog today.heh. Try one more time. QJ missed. I've had those days too.Heh, fuck it. I give up. You got my point though. Yeah, there's always next time. Either way though, nothin' to shake a stick at. Tunica's a fun little town, eh? Heh.It was fun. I met some really cool people. Too much smoking though.It's not a bad little place if that's what you're used to as far as smaller cities. Living in Des Moines, it's just like a second home, but with more casinos. The people down there are very cool. If this thread happens to die, I'll bump it for DN to hopefully see. Don't be afraid to pop into our little strat section over here. We've got quite a few very good tournament players around here. Link to post Share on other sites
Crazy Cypriot 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 The way i see it his betting is half defensive and half value betting. My first thoughts was that he had some of weak drawless nine , or at least with not many draws and he was trying to avoid to play an all in pot.I just thought however that he said that he missed a bluff where he should have moved in, so i guess its probly it.But my first feel is a weakish nine Link to post Share on other sites
AceyDucey 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I also thought possibly J8 or J10 even. Link to post Share on other sites
jlgosse 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Answer? Link to post Share on other sites
The Czar 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 His 8 k bet into a pot of 20k or so screams informational bet to me. I actually don't see it as a value bet. This bet creates two options for you in the senario DN has built in his head. You have QJ and were on a draw the entire way. OR, you also have a ten but a weaker kicker than his and he can make you lay it down by betting half your stack.There are no more streets to get information for after his 8k bet. Maybe I use the term differently than you.If I have a T with a weaker kicker than his (assuming he has a T) why would he want me to lay it down?Does anyone think that a river bet of this size could be a bluff by DN?Given the information, I think Daniel would have raised preflop with an overpair (JJ, QQ, KK, AA) Also, after the flop, If he has J8 I think he raises more (I'm basing this on some of his prior hands where he bets these types of draws aggresively) Also, he sees you're a 21 year old and he knows it's your tournament on the line if you call a larger bet, so I think if he has J8 he presses you right there. After the turn, I see no info. given by either of you. It looked like a standard bet and a standard call, but now he knowns for you to call, you may just have something. The 3 on the river scares noone, so I think Daniel bets his AT and figures he has the best of it, but isn't 100% sure. I see no way he bluffs with an $8,000 bet there, but I also don't think he KNOWS if he has the best hand. Anxious to hear the result. Congrats by the way and good discussion. Link to post Share on other sites
The Czar 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Sorry, I meant I thought Daniel had A9, not AT. Link to post Share on other sites
CodyHartman 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Answer?If we are doing analysis, do we want the answer yet? It would be neat to hear from DN, I dont know if he will though. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Answer?If we are doing analysis, do we want the answer yet? It would be neat to hear from DN, I dont know if he will though.I went to 2+2 and saw the answer. If anyone's that curious, they should go there. I'd really like it we could get some more thoughts/discussion about it before the actual hand is posted. And it would be kinda niceto hear Daniel's thoughts too. Link to post Share on other sites
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