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Ak In Co, Two Limps From Ep And Mp


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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP2 (t1270)Hero (t1470)Button (t1480)SB (t1290)BB (t1090)UTG (t3450)UTG+1 (t1390)MP1 (t2060)Preflop: Hero is CO with Aclub.gif, Kspade.gif. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP2 calls t30, Hero...?I'm raising here, but how much? Do I want to get called, or do I figure this is a decent pot to take down without having to risk missing the flop?

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my standard line for early in a 1.20 sng is to 120. I don't get too crazy if we miss the flop though, but if we hit, any pair is going along for the ride no matter their kicker. Fold to the early maniac's reraises, if there is gonna be one.

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I'd raise to 150 ~ 180 because of your excellent position and the high quality of your hand.

my standard line for early in a 1.20 sng is to 120. I don't get too crazy if we miss the flop though, but if we hit, any pair is going along for the ride no matter their kicker.
120 is not big enough because once you have raised the pot it becomes 225, giving them 2.5:1 to call. People can still call with a too wide of a range of hands given you have AKo. Hence you're less clear about whats calling you and you're reducing your chances of stealing when you miss.A raise to 150 gives them 1.7:1... and gives you a lot more information once we see how they play post flop.
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150 FTWThis pot is about as insignificant as it gets, and the size of the raise isn't intended to win it right here. The size of the raise is to lose the suited one-gappers and low pocket pairs and create an easier situation to play post-flop. We don't want to risk anything this early in a SnG.

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Results: I did raise to 150, and everyone folded. Then I wondered if I should be happy with that result (taking 105 without a fight); or if I should have raised a little less to get "customers".

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Fold to the early maniac's reraises, if there is gonna be one.
Preflop? Nah, I'd put all the chips in the middle against a reraise every time with AK.
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I know I'm going to get criticized for this, but I've really downgraded the value of AK early in the $1.20's. Given the quality of play early in these SnGs, playing AK aggressively is actually a good way to leak chips. More often than not you're going to end up with callers and then making a decent-sized CB, and you'll end up losing to someone with a pair of 8's or someone who sucks out on the river. It's a drawing hand and at this particular level of play, I honestly think you're better off playing it cautiously than aggressively in the early stages.By the way, Slacker and LB, why didn't you post in my $1.20 thread? We need to build up our little community...

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I know I'm going to get criticized for this, but I've really downgraded the value of AK early in the $1.20's. Given the quality of play early in these SnGs, playing AK aggressively is actually a good way to leak chips. More often than not you're going to end up with callers and then making a decent-sized CB, and you'll end up losing to someone with a pair of 8's or someone who sucks out on the river. It's a drawing hand and at this particular level of play, I honestly think you're better off playing it cautiously than aggressively in the early stages.By the way, Slacker and LB, why didn't you post in my $1.20 thread? We need to build up our little community...
Results based thinking is bad, my friend.
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By the way, Slacker and LB, why didn't you post in my $1.20 thread? We need to build up our little community...
Hey, sorry man...I've been busy getting ready to go on vacation (leaving Thursday morning). I hadn't even looked at the board, really, since last week's strat tourney (which reminds me--I'd better go start this week's thread); and I hadn't even played from then until last night, when this hand came along and I thought I'd post it. I agree with you, though. Next time you want to get something going (especially after I get back to having regular computer access the end of June) drop me an email and I'll be sure to come join in: AlanSlackerInc@yahoo.com
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I know I'm going to get criticized for this, but I've really downgraded the value of AK early in the $1.20's. Given the quality of play early in these SnGs, playing AK aggressively is actually a good way to leak chips. More often than not you're going to end up with callers and then making a decent-sized CB, and you'll end up losing to someone with a pair of 8's or someone who sucks out on the river. It's a drawing hand and at this particular level of play, I honestly think you're better off playing it cautiously than aggressively in the early stages.
I think this is partially right. The CB might be something you don't want to do automatically (though I find a two-thirds pot CB does often take it down against one or two opponents; and this play only has to work 40% of the time to break even). But as I said upthread, I don't mind playing it with the ultimate level of preflop aggression (shoving all the chips in once someone builds the pot enough with a raise and a couple callers, or a reraise) as AK is a great hand to get your opponents to commit their chips against before they have a chance to see if they've flopped anything.
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I've downgraded ak's importance early on too.

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I know I'm going to get criticized for this, but I've really downgraded the value of AK early in the $1.20's. Given the quality of play early in these SnGs, playing AK aggressively is actually a good way to leak chips. More often than not you're going to end up with callers and then making a decent-sized CB, and you'll end up losing to someone with a pair of 8's or someone who sucks out on the river. It's a drawing hand and at this particular level of play, I honestly think you're better off playing it cautiously than aggressively in the early stages.By the way, Slacker and LB, why didn't you post in my $1.20 thread? We need to build up our little community...
No way, play AK hard and fast. One, getting it all in preflop against these donks is great because of their tendency to overplay weaker aces and kings. Getting your money in as a 3-1 favorite is awesome. Two, there's no rule that you must continuation bet. Supposing you make it 120 to go here and get three callers, then whiff on the flop; why would you take a stab at it when you're against stations? Just check behind. But when you do hit the flop with TPTK you'll get paid off in a big way. You want a good sized pot when you hit, not something meaningless like T100.
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You guys might be confusing things such as leaking with unnecessary or bad c-bets, with AK being a bad hand early. Any preflop raise you make is strictly for value, and you make big time money off of every call. If you start limping with this hand at any point in the tourney, it's time to quit poker because you've lost your balls.Preflop is all about value. Postflop, you have to learn to play vs these bad players. All you guys are so concerned about winning pots after you've raised preflop. You raise preflop because you've got the best hand, and would like to win a big pot when you hit. It's nice to have some fold equity if you miss, but if you're playing tards that don't fold bottom pair, then don't c-bet. See cheap turn and rivers to draw out. OR, if they won't fold hands WORSE than AK, you're making money each c-bet you make.JM mentioned he hated AK because the guy sucks out with a pair on the river when they stuck around with nothing. If you don't understand how this is a good result for you, then you don't understand poker.And for the love of God, AK is NOT A DRAWING HAND.

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I didn't say that AK was a bad hand early, all I said was that there are a few reasons why it isn't as valuable early in $1.20 SnGs as its ranking in hand charts indicates. I'm not sure I understand how AK is not a drawing hand because it almost always has to improve in order to win. How many showdowns have you won with A-high, especially early in a tourney?Now don't get me wrong, I don't always limp in with AK. It depends a lot on the situation. I used to always raise PF with AK but now I've started to pick my spots more. I also don't like the PF raise without a CB because it screams, "Overcards that missed."And I know I'm not completely out to lunch here. I have read several authors, including DN himself, who have argued for downgrading the value of AK. My experience at the $1.20's (however limited) has helped me understand why.

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I agree with Zach 100%. So you check/fold a missed flop 2/3 of the time. 1/3 of the time you stack AT. Or 88. Or 52o. Seriously. Sheesh...20% of the time you get re-raised and get all in with a coin flip at worse. I raise to 150 here without hesitation. I only c-bet if I have fold equity. Early in a 1.20, I think you can expect your fold equity to be pretty close to 0.

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I didn't say that AK was a bad hand early, all I said was that there are a few reasons why it isn't as valuable early in $1.20 SnGs as its ranking in hand charts indicates. I'm not sure I understand how AK is not a drawing hand because it almost always has to improve in order to win. How many showdowns have you won with A-high, especially early in a tourney?Now don't get me wrong, I don't always limp in with AK. It depends a lot on the situation. I used to always raise PF with AK but now I've started to pick my spots more. I also don't like the PF raise without a CB because it screams, "Overcards that missed."And I know I'm not completely out to lunch here. I have read several authors, including DN himself, who have argued for downgrading the value of AK. My experience at the $1.20's (however limited) has helped me understand why.
Zach is completely right - AK is not a "drawing hand" against dominated aces or kings. It doesn't have to improve against AQ in order to win. At the micro-limits you run into tons of donks who overplay AJ/AQ/KQ/KJ/ and you dominate them all to the tune of a 3-1 favorite. That's a huge edge. AK has tremendous preflop equity against this range and therefore should be played hard and fast.It's an interesting hand because its value depends on your opponent's willingness to overplay dominated aces. No hand evolves more, I don't think, as you move up in limits. Against good players when relatively deep stacked, it's a pain in the *** if you're reraised and OOP, because you'll only get action when you're absolutely crushed. If you flop an ace then QQ/JJ/KK will just fold up shop, but if you do get action then it's either from another AK or a set of aces. Same holds true if you flop a king. QQ/JJ fold whereas KK and AA throw the hammer down.You will find DN and others argue that AK shouldn't be overplayed in certain circumstances. In fact you can find both me and Zach arguing for a preflop fold of AK in the NL cash forum. But definitely not in a micro-limit SNG.
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I agree with Zach 100%. So you check/fold a missed flop 2/3 of the time. 1/3 of the time you stack AT. Or 88. Or 52o. Seriously. Sheesh...20% of the time you get re-raised and get all in with a coin flip at worse. I raise to 150 here without hesitation. I only c-bet if I have fold equity. Early in a 1.20, I think you can expect your fold equity to be pretty close to 0.
AJ is teh nuts. AQ too.
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Zach is completely right - AK is not a "drawing hand" against dominated aces or kings. It doesn't have to improve against AQ in order to win. At the micro-limits you run into tons of donks who overplay AJ/AQ/KQ/KJ/ and you dominate them all to the tune of a 3-1 favorite. That's a huge edge. AK has tremendous preflop equity against this range and therefore should be played hard and fast.
Okay, this makes sense. There are lots of $1.20 players who will push in the first few hands of a SnG with hands like AQ and AJs.The limping situations I'm thinking of are those scenarios when you're in LP with AK, and a handful of players have limped in before you. AK can quickly turn into crap postflop if you miss against several opponents, so in this scenario early in a SnG I will just limp in with the rest of the field. If the flop hits me, I'll play it aggressively; if not, I'll just check-fold and save myself the chips. But I will play it aggressively against 1 or 2 opponents or if play is folded to me in LP.
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You're still not understanding the value in a preflop raise with AK, even if everybody calls your raise.AK is not dominated by anything other than AA, KK, and if there's not raise, those are unlikely. This means you're at worst a coinflip vs each of the other hands, and a lot of the time, you are dominating them.If you can get as much money in preflop as possible, every single time, in this scenario, you will come out on top, significantly.Also, you don't HAVE to c-bet postflop. Just because you're saying it looks like whiffed overs, you're inclined to bet it. Ok, but if you're playing against players who won't fold anything, then you have to just play your cards as they are; whiffed overs.I think this whole argument comes back to that thread a month ago or so about not being able to adjust to the play in a $1.20 SNG.

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The limping situations I'm thinking of are those scenarios when you're in LP with AK, and a handful of players have limped in before you. AK can quickly turn into crap postflop if you miss against several opponents, so in this scenario early in a SnG I will just limp in with the rest of the field. If the flop hits me, I'll play it aggressively; if not, I'll just check-fold and save myself the chips. But I will play it aggressively against 1 or 2 opponents or if play is folded to me in LP.
When you get AK you aren't entitled to win. It's OK to raise, miss, and check or fold. Unlike what you see on HSP this happens all of the time. Raise preflop when you have the edge and build a pot for when you DO hit. Let me list some examples to llustrate what I'm arguing.You make it 150 to go and get 2 callers, so the pot is 450. This is great for you. With a starting stack of 1500 you can easily stack weaker aces or kings on the flop. Suppose the flop comes down Kxx or Axx. Checks to you and you bet a confident 400. Now of course you're in trouble against aces up or sets, but more often than not you'll either get raised or called by hands drawing to 3 outs. Villain cannot get away from his hand now if he's got top pair - he's simply not deep enough to do so. You either take down a healthy pot uncontested or you get someone's stack, here or on the turn. Good result either way.Now suppose you miss instead - then nothing happens. You check and fold or you get bet into and fold. You now have 1350 chips which is still very manageable. You were risking 150 or so to win a helluva lot more. Depending on your opponents and the coordination of the board you could still try to take the pot down with a c/bet, but without a read it's just not worth it.Now let's look at another situation, where you flat call with AK OTB. Five people in the pot, which stands at a measly 150. When you do flop an ace or a king you can only reasonably bet 150, maybe up to 200 if it's draw intensive. But for the sake of argument let's say you bet 150. Well, we're not looking at getting your opponent's stack if he has a weaker ace or king. If he's passive and calls you down there's only so much you can bet on each street, and supposing the board gets scary you'll probably put on the brakes with one pair. You also give weaker aces or kings the possibility to get away from their hands. Suppose that villain raises to 400 and you shove. Any idiot knows his top pair / no kicker is trash here. True, many donks still cannot fold their hands, but you'll never stack a competent, decent player here. But it's guaranteed that you'll get action when you're behind to some whacky hand like J6 on a AJ6 flop.I just played in an SNG where I would've busted you. 15/30 6-handed and everyone but the button limped, and I completed from the SB with 56o. The BB woke up, making it 250 to go, and MP called. The rest of us folded. The flop rolled off A56. Had he allowed me to see a cheap flop, doing nothing to protect his hand, I would've cleaned him out. I would've led into him, he would've raised, and now he's facing a tough decision for all of his chips because I moved in.Don't give marginal hands a cheap look at the flop. Raise when you've got a good hand. Sure they may outflop you but you're putting money into the pot when you're ahead - that's the fundamental reason for why we can beat this game.
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Okay, this makes sense. There are lots of $1.20 players who will push in the first few hands of a SnG with hands like AQ and AJs.The limping situations I'm thinking of are those scenarios when you're in LP with AK, and a handful of players have limped in before you. AK can quickly turn into crap postflop if you miss against several opponents, so in this scenario early in a SnG I will just limp in with the rest of the field. If the flop hits me, I'll play it aggressively; if not, I'll just check-fold and save myself the chips. But I will play it aggressively against 1 or 2 opponents or if play is folded to me in LP.
This is a very bad way to play it IMO. You give the limpers (and the BB) a free chance to hit some weird two pair hand (a nightmare if the flop comes with an A or K) without paying for the privilege to do so (ETA: trystero gave a great example just above me).Someone asked "how often does AK win a showdown without pairing"? Quite often if all the money gets in preflop.
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All right, all right...I see your points. Maybe I subconsciously pulled back my AK play after getting burned a couple of times and now I'm trying to justify it.Still one thing I don't understand about EV in SnGs vs. cash play. The long run +EV of AK makes sense to me in the cash game scenario because your goal is to accumulate profits and the big wins with hands like AK can offset the losses. In cash games you can also rebuy to make back losses. But in a SnG scenario, getting all your chips in with AK early will result in only 2 possibilities: you'll either bust out and end up with nothing, or you'll double through. But even if you double through, you still have to play the rest of the tourney and can still end up busting out. You can't walk away from a tourney table with a good stack. So although putting all your money in with AK may result in a positive balance of chips accumulated over the long term, that doesn't actually equate to positive earnings. All it does is give you a bigger stack, which increases the chances of earning money in a SnG, but it doesn't necessarily increase your long term earnings. Does that make sense at all?

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