rock or lag?

[nell789 0]

So I decided to nutbar on some .01/.02 PLO tables while listening to the lastest episode of The Circuit. Since I didn't care about the money at all, I was playing incredibly LAG, at one point raising about 75% of the hands pre-flop.I turned my $2 buy-in into $8, at which point I started raising every single pot pre-flop, and donked off all my chips, but I digress...Because of the success of my LAGiness, I decided to try out the strategy at my normal stakes, $.1/25 (I'm a high roller, I know).So far while using the LAG strategy instead of my usual nut-peddling I'm up to $150 from my $25 buy-in, and obviously I'm running very well, but I found that once I showed down a few weak hands, that my strong hands have all been paid off handsomely.So what do you think the better strategy for these low stakes PLO games, TAG or LAG? and for that matter, does the strategy change for the higher stakes games?

[Royal27 0]

I find myself to be SLAA. I'm usually around 30% to see the flop. I guess you could even call that more the SL. My raising really depends on if I can buy show pots. If everyone is going to call the raise with any four cards it just doesn't seem worth it to me.I firmly believe that post flop play is without a doubt the key along with table image. If I donk off some money early it's much easier to get it back and then some by playing only the goods. The reverse seems to work as well - get the goods early and you can bluff more.Thoughts anyone?By the way, I play $50 six player on party and small buy-in tourneys on FT.

[nell789 0]

I find myself to be SLAA. I'm usually around 30% to see the flop. I guess you could even call that more the SL.  My raising really depends on if I can buy show pots. If everyone is going to call the raise with any four cards it just doesn't seem worth it to me.I firmly believe that post flop play is without a doubt the key along with table image.  If I donk off some money early it's much easier to get it back and then some by playing only the goods. The reverse seems to work as well - get the goods early and you can bluff more.Thoughts anyone?By the way, I play $50 six player on party and small buy-in tourneys on FT.

I think raising per-flop is always worth it if you have a good hand. You always should want more money in when you have a strong hand, even if the edge is very small. Also, if that pre-flop raise makes the flop even 4 handed instead of 7 or 8 handed, then it has done it's job.The key to playing LAG I have found is to make sure the AG is included with the L. What I mean by that is, you shouldn't be the one calling bet's all the way down, always make sure you're the bettor, even on your draws. This makes it very hard to read what you have, and after getting that loose table image, people start calling you down with crap all the time (at least at the very low stakes games). You just have to be careful when people start raising you...if you don't have a strong hand, you have to get out because in Omaha, no one is going to risk making a huge pot with a marginal hand, no matter how loose you seem.That's what I've observed so far in my limited playing, anybody who is actually good at the game, please correct/discuss.

[Socko669 0]

I find myself to be SLAA. I'm usually around 30% to see the flop. I guess you could even call that more the SL. My raising really depends on if I can buy show pots. If everyone is going to call the raise with any four cards it just doesn't seem worth it to me.I firmly believe that post flop play is without a doubt the key along with table image. If I donk off some money early it's much easier to get it back and then some by playing only the goods. The reverse seems to work as well - get the goods early and you can bluff more.Thoughts anyone?By the way, I play $50 six player on party and small buy-in tourneys on FT.

I think raising per-flop is always worth it if you have a good hand. You always should want more money in when you have a strong hand, even if the edge is very small. Also, if that pre-flop raise makes the flop even 4 handed instead of 7 or 8 handed, then it has done it's job.The key to playing LAG I have found is to make sure the AG is included with the L. What I mean by that is, you shouldn't be the one calling bet's all the way down, always make sure you're the bettor, even on your draws. This makes it very hard to read what you have, and after getting that loose table image, people start calling you down with crap all the time (at least at the very low stakes games). You just have to be careful when people start raising you...if you don't have a strong hand, you have to get out because in Omaha, no one is going to risk making a huge pot with a marginal hand, no matter how loose you seem.That's what I've observed so far in my limited playing, anybody who is actually good at the game, please correct/discuss.

don't know if i agree with this...there are plenty of donks who build huge pots and pay off with very mediocre hands...that is what makes low limit plomaha so great...if you pick your spots well and have a decent read on players it is surpising how many times middle set or top two can win you a big pot.

[Royal27 0]

I find myself to be SLAA. I'm usually around 30% to see the flop. I guess you could even call that more the SL. My raising really depends on if I can buy show pots. If everyone is going to call the raise with any four cards it just doesn't seem worth it to me.I firmly believe that post flop play is without a doubt the key along with table image. If I donk off some money early it's much easier to get it back and then some by playing only the goods. The reverse seems to work as well - get the goods early and you can bluff more.Thoughts anyone?By the way, I play $50 six player on party and small buy-in tourneys on FT.

I think raising per-flop is always worth it if you have a good hand. You always should want more money in when you have a strong hand, even if the edge is very small. Also, if that pre-flop raise makes the flop even 4 handed instead of 7 or 8 handed, then it has done it's job.The key to playing LAG I have found is to make sure the AG is included with the L. What I mean by that is, you shouldn't be the one calling bet's all the way down, always make sure you're the bettor, even on your draws. This makes it very hard to read what you have, and after getting that loose table image, people start calling you down with crap all the time (at least at the very low stakes games). You just have to be careful when people start raising you...if you don't have a strong hand, you have to get out because in Omaha, no one is going to risk making a huge pot with a marginal hand, no matter how loose you seem.That's what I've observed so far in my limited playing, anybody who is actually good at the game, please correct/discuss.

SS2 would diagree with this. It talks abour almost never raising with AAxx., re-raise yes, but not the first raise. I've found that NOT raising does indeed work. Flop a set against two pair, or a draw and it's off to the races and you have the lead! mixing it up pre-flop seems to be more importanrt in Omaha than post-flop, especially with weak players. I VERY rarely slow play post flop.

[Royal27 0]

I find myself to be SLAA. I'm usually around 30% to see the flop. I guess you could even call that more the SL. My raising really depends on if I can buy show pots. If everyone is going to call the raise with any four cards it just doesn't seem worth it to me.I firmly believe that post flop play is without a doubt the key along with table image. If I donk off some money early it's much easier to get it back and then some by playing only the goods. The reverse seems to work as well - get the goods early and you can bluff more.Thoughts anyone?By the way, I play $50 six player on party and small buy-in tourneys on FT.

I think raising per-flop is always worth it if you have a good hand. You always should want more money in when you have a strong hand, even if the edge is very small. Also, if that pre-flop raise makes the flop even 4 handed instead of 7 or 8 handed, then it has done it's job.The key to playing LAG I have found is to make sure the AG is included with the L. What I mean by that is, you shouldn't be the one calling bet's all the way down, always make sure you're the bettor, even on your draws. This makes it very hard to read what you have, and after getting that loose table image, people start calling you down with crap all the time (at least at the very low stakes games). You just have to be careful when people start raising you...if you don't have a strong hand, you have to get out because in Omaha, no one is going to risk making a huge pot with a marginal hand, no matter how loose you seem.That's what I've observed so far in my limited playing, anybody who is actually good at the game, please correct/discuss.

SS2 would diagree with this(always raising pre-flop). It talks about almost never raising with AAxx., re-raise yes, but not the first raise. I've found that NOT raising does indeed work. Flop a set against two pair, or a draw and it's off to the races and you have the lead! mixing it up pre-flop seems to be more importanrt in Omaha than post-flop, especially with weak players. I VERY rarely slow play post flop.

[Deepkoncntrtion 0]

I find myself to be SLAA. I'm usually around 30% to see the flop. I guess you could even call that more the SL.

30% is TAG @ a full table for plo, and ur only @ 30% for 6 max.? PLO stats. and NL HE r entirely different.A tight player in PLO is hitting b/n 25-35% pf calls. If ur Vpip is below 20% @ a full-ring you are leaving a lot of money on the table, and u should be potting pre-flop every hand you come in w. in order to gain that equity back.

[Deepkoncntrtion 0]

SS2 would diagree with this. It talks abour almost never raising with AAxx.,

It's not profitable to marginalize yourself w. 1 strategy, the author in SS2 simply meant that if you never raise any hand except AAxx than you should not raise it either, b/c doing so tells the rest of the table half of your hand.However, you should still be raising pf in PLO, esp. in CO1 and CO2 to buy the button, position is a major factor in PLO and if your going to play a hand for your stack you should be maximizing every edge you can get.You are correct in the sense that you should never raise in EP, as building a pot OOP is a major leak in big-bet.I raise all kinds of deceptive hands pf in LP, 4567 ds, J1098ds, etc., the benefit from this comes when an observant opponent believes ur pot raise signifies AAxx, and they are willing to put their stack in when they spike 2 pair. When you flop the str8 or a 15+ out wrap with flush potential it is v. easy to stack ppl who believe u hold AAxx.

[nell789 0]

SS2 would diagree with this. It talks abour almost never raising with AAxx.,

It's not profitable to marginalize yourself w. 1 strategy, the author in SS2 simply meant that if you never raise any hand except AAxx than you should not raise it either, b/c doing so tells the rest of the table half of your hand.However, you should still be raising pf in PLO, esp. in CO1 and CO2 to buy the button, position is a major factor in PLO and if your going to play a hand for your stack you should be maximizing every edge you can get.You are correct in the sense that you should never raise in EP, as building a pot OOP is a major leak in big-bet.I raise all kinds of deceptive hands pf in LP, 4567 ds, J1098ds, etc., the benefit from this comes when an observant opponent believes ur pot raise signifies AAxx, and they are willing to put their stack in when they spike 2 pair. When you flop the str8 or a 15+ out wrap with flush potential it is v. easy to stack ppl who believe u hold AAxx.

I completely know what you're saying. I love raising OF with low connectors or other tricky hands, people never see it coming, especially at the low stakes that I play for.I was recently playing this one player who was extremely tight, and only raised if she had 2 high pairs in her hand, and AA with two big cards, or if she had any AA double suited hand. This made it incredibly easy to read her hand, and I ended up taking her stack on a A 2 5 rainbow board with the wheel.I've started to limp alot more with paired hands, waiting until I hit a set on a safe board to bet, and then raising with hands like 5678 or 910jj double suited, as when these kind of flops hit, it's alot more tricky, and people get into trouble with sets/two pair/overpairs. Is this a big leak in my game?Also, I've been getting into trouble with non-nut flushes...should I always just assume that someone out there has the nut draw, and never draw to anything less?

[Deepkoncntrtion 0]

I've started to limp alot more with paired hands

This is the optimal play when u are upfront. It is v. hard to draw to a hand when you are OOP, b/c if you hit ur hand on 4th st. and a scare card comes on 5th. you are clueless to what your opp. has and u may get stacked off to a better hand or get bluffed off the best hand. Thus, paired hands are the 1's you want to play w. up front. When ur in EP and u spike top set, w. 100BB you are usually able to get your whole stack in or 75% of it in by the turn, either by check-raising or leading, being re-raised, and then three betting. So on 5th. street you will have 1 of 2 situations occur, either ur whole stack is already in and you don't have to make any decisions, or 75% of your stack is in the middle and if a scare card comes, you are still getting the correct odds to call off the last 25% of your stack.

Is this a big leak in my game?

Not raising pf w/ paired hands in LP is not a leak. Most of the leaks in omaha deal w. flop decisions as thats where the essential decision to play for your stack takes place, the other 2 streets are easier to deal with, unless your v. deep.

I've been getting into trouble with non-nut flushes...should I always just assume that someone out there has the nut draw

This is a massive leak, you should never draw to non-nut flushes, you would be better off donating to charity and recieving +karma. You will drastically increase your win. rate from plugging this leak. A more effective way of viewing your hand when you have to suited cards is understanding that you now have 2 blockers to the nut flush, so if you have the nut str8 on 4th. street you can feel a little more confident in pushing your hand, as your holding 2 of the 9 flush outs. Hope this helps a little, good luck.Edit: this applies to full ring 7+ handed, playing 4 handed or less is a entirely different beast where u will betting very thin, so non-nut flushes gain in value.

[nell789 0]

I've started to limp alot more with paired hands

This is the optimal play when u are upfront. It is v. hard to draw to a hand when you are OOP, b/c if you hit ur hand on 4th st. and a scare card comes on 5th. you are clueless to what your opp. has and u may get stacked off to a better hand or get bluffed off the best hand. Thus, paired hands are the 1's you want to play w. up front. When ur in EP and u spike top set, w. 100BB you are usually able to get your whole stack in or 75% of it in by the turn, either by check-raising or leading, being re-raised, and then three betting. So on 5th. street you will have 1 of 2 situations occur, either ur whole stack is already in and you don't have to make any decisions, or 75% of your stack is in the middle and if a scare card comes, you are still getting the correct odds to call off the last 25% of your stack.

Is this a big leak in my game?

Not raising pf w/ paired hands in LP is not a leak. Most of the leaks in omaha deal w. flop decisions as thats where the essential decision to play for your stack takes place, the other 2 streets are easier to deal with, unless your v. deep.

I've been getting into trouble with non-nut flushes...should I always just assume that someone out there has the nut draw

This is a massive leak, you should never draw to non-nut flushes, you would be better off donating to charity and recieving +karma. You will drastically increase your win. rate from plugging this leak. A more effective way of viewing your hand when you have to suited cards is understanding that you now have 2 blockers to the nut flush, so if you have the nut str8 on 4th. street you can feel a little more confident in pushing your hand, as your holding 2 of the 9 flush outs. Hope this helps a little, good luck.Edit: this applies to full ring 7+ handed, playing 4 handed or less is a entirely different beast where u will betting very thin, so non-nut flushes gain in value.

much thanks for the help

[Royal27 0]

SS2 would diagree with this. It talks abour almost never raising with AAxx.,

It's not profitable to marginalize yourself w. 1 strategy, the author in SS2 simply meant that if you never raise any hand except AAxx than you should not raise it either, b/c doing so tells the rest of the table half of your hand.However, you should still be raising pf in PLO, esp. in CO1 and CO2 to buy the button, position is a major factor in PLO and if your going to play a hand for your stack you should be maximizing every edge you can get.You are correct in the sense that you should never raise in EP, as building a pot OOP is a major leak in big-bet.I raise all kinds of deceptive hands pf in LP, 4567 ds, J1098ds, etc., the benefit from this comes when an observant opponent believes ur pot raise signifies AAxx, and they are willing to put their stack in when they spike 2 pair. When you flop the str8 or a 15+ out wrap with flush potential it is v. easy to stack ppl who believe u hold AAxx.

I see what you are saying and don't just raise with pairs. I'm really even more curious about percentage of play though. I guess I'm tighter than I thought I was... I use PT and knew that I was tighter than most, I just thought that I was playing mostly with people who don't know what they are doing. May I should loosen up a little? I consider myself to be a decnt post-flop player, although maybe a little to agressive - seem to lose money I don't need to on hands like an under full, or K high str..

[Deepkoncntrtion 0]

30% vpip is solid for 6 max. PLO $50, u are playing TAG which is the best way to kill those games, esp. on Party.I wouldn't suggest trying to adopt a LAG style until you start sitting in games where the majority of players are nut peddlers, and you have a lot more experience w. your opponents, so you can trust your reads. 6 max. is crazy fun and always exciting, just understand that your variance will be more severe, you will have days where u destroy the tables, and other days where 6 of your 80/20 hands will all lose, mainly b/c ppl are willing to gamble more.You also have to have a mindset where your comfortable betting very thin. What I mean by this is the nuts are out quite a bit less than they are for full ring, so you can value bet lower flushes and str8s, however you need to be very observant of your opponents, b/c you can easily get burned. If u get repotted and you know the player is a nut peddler its an easy laydown. On the otherhand, some players will repot u on the river with only a made str8 when u have Q hi flush...6 max. is alot more read dependant.Another skill that you should incorporate when you encounter other solid observant players who have been watching you showdown strong hands, is 2 bluff the river when a scare card comes and they check 2 you. Once in awhile they may be trapping by checking the nut flush, so there is some risk, however this is a great stack builder for 6 max., esp. b/c the blinds hit you quicker.I know you stated earlier you're very agg. just remember to be super agg. in LP and not EP, as building pots OOP is v. weak in big bet. If you did want to open up your hand range, you can start playing hands with only 3 running connectors in LP, ex: 9873 ss or J1093 ss, these hands are fine to limp in with in 6 max., as long as your in MP or LP.

[Guest]

30% vpip is solid for 6 max. PLO $50, u are playing TAG which is the best way to kill those games, esp. on Party.I wouldn't suggest trying to adopt a LAG style until you start sitting in games where the majority of players are nut peddlers, and you have a lot more experience w. your opponents, so you can trust your reads.  6 max. is crazy fun and always exciting, just understand that your variance will be more severe, you will have days where u destroy the tables, and other days where 6 of your 80/20 hands will all lose, mainly b/c ppl are willing to gamble more.You also have to have a mindset where your comfortable betting very thin. What I mean by this is the nuts are out quite a bit less than they are for full ring, so you can value bet lower flushes and str8s, however you need to be very observant of your opponents, b/c you can easily get burned.  If u get repotted and you know the player is a nut peddler its an easy laydown. On the otherhand, some players will repot u on the river with only a made str8 when u have Q hi flush...6 max. is alot more read dependant.Another skill that you should incorporate when you encounter other solid observant players who have been watching you showdown strong hands, is 2 bluff the river when a scare card comes and they check 2 you. Once in awhile they may be trapping by checking the nut flush, so there is some risk, however this is a great stack builder for 6 max., esp. b/c the blinds hit you quicker.I know you stated earlier you're very agg. just remember to be super agg. in LP and not EP, as building pots OOP is v. weak in big bet.  If you did want to open up your hand range, you can start playing hands with only 3 running connectors in LP, ex: 9873 ss or J1093 ss, these hands are fine to limp in with in 6 max., as long as your in MP or LP.

I love LAGing the 6max PLO tables. Peopel are soOOooo weak-tight there. It all comes down to how well you think you can read hands based on how they play and how you can read betting patterns. I have killed the PLO $50 by being a LAG. When I sense weakness I go for the KILL!

[Guest]

30% vpip is solid for 6 max. PLO $50, u are playing TAG which is the best way to kill those games, esp. on Party.I wouldn't suggest trying to adopt a LAG style until you start sitting in games where the majority of players are nut peddlers, and you have a lot more experience w. your opponents, so you can trust your reads.  6 max. is crazy fun and always exciting, just understand that your variance will be more severe, you will have days where u destroy the tables, and other days where 6 of your 80/20 hands will all lose, mainly b/c ppl are willing to gamble more.You also have to have a mindset where your comfortable betting very thin. What I mean by this is the nuts are out quite a bit less than they are for full ring, so you can value bet lower flushes and str8s, however you need to be very observant of your opponents, b/c you can easily get burned.  If u get repotted and you know the player is a nut peddler its an easy laydown. On the otherhand, some players will repot u on the river with only a made str8 when u have Q hi flush...6 max. is alot more read dependant.Another skill that you should incorporate when you encounter other solid observant players who have been watching you showdown strong hands, is 2 bluff the river when a scare card comes and they check 2 you. Once in awhile they may be trapping by checking the nut flush, so there is some risk, however this is a great stack builder for 6 max., esp. b/c the blinds hit you quicker.I know you stated earlier you're very agg. just remember to be super agg. in LP and not EP, as building pots OOP is v. weak in big bet.  If you did want to open up your hand range, you can start playing hands with only 3 running connectors in LP, ex: 9873 ss or J1093 ss, these hands are fine to limp in with in 6 max., as long as your in MP or LP.

I love LAGing the 6max PLO tables. Peopel are soOOooo weak-tight there. It all comes down to how well you think you can read hands based on how they play and how you can read betting patterns. I have killed the PLO $50 by being a LAG. When I sense weakness I go for the KILL!

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I have "nutbarred" a good amount of hours playing low limit PLO and have had amazing results. In fact, when I play, I raise 100% of the hands and generally crush the table. How? Well, they sit there and wait for AA, and when the flop comes 4-5-7 are willing to get it all in with me because I play "crazy." Sammy Farha, Phil Ivey, and Robert Williamson III also play wild before the flop which gets them tons of action after the flop. I learned how to play the game fro Phil years ago, and since have had awesome results playing uber aggressivley.

[Royal27 0]

I have "nutbarred" a good amount of hours playing low limit PLO and have had amazing results.  In fact, when I play, I raise 100% of the hands and generally crush the table.  How?  Well, they sit there and wait for AA, and when the flop comes 4-5-7 are willing to get it all in with me because I play "crazy."  Sammy Farha, Phil Ivey, and Robert Williamson III also play wild before the flop which gets them tons of action after the flop.  I learned how to play the game fro Phil years ago, and since have had awesome results playing uber aggressivley.

I'm finding that out as well. If I raise with ANYTHING BUT AA people always assume that I have AA. Epecially if it is a re-raise. If I hit anything i bet - "protecting my AA." People will then come over the top with much less than normal thinking this. you can then re-raise and get a call much easier. They just don't beleive that that str draw on the board is dangerous to their two pair, or set. they find out though. :twisted: If I don't hit, I will many times bet pot anyway (if I can make the first bet). As I'm "holding AA" people fold unless they can beat that. This works really well with an A on the board, unless someone else has AA. but, you find out about that very quickly and can fold. This seems to be a pretty profitable play as well.