another 10-20 no limit hand at commerce......

[steve7stud 0]

This a hand from memory, and it's from live play. So I apologize for the text involved. I was sitting at a pretty normal table at Commerce, when this hand came up. To my right was a well know tourny/cash game player. He was running over the table and was totally unpredictable. Literally raising all the time.I started with $1500. The pro had $7000Pro makes his standard raise to $70. I look down and find two Jacks. I re-raise and make it $250 to go. Everyone folds including the blinds, and the pro calls.Flop: Queen, Queen, 2, RainbowPro:ChecksMe:Bet=$250Call...pot is now $1030Turn:4.......Queen, Queen, 2, 4, Rainbow.Pro:ChecksMe:Bet=400Pro:Check raises me all in, for another $600.Call or Fold?

[jayboogie 0]

This is a pretty tough decision Steve, but I think this is a call here, your essentially getting 4:1 on your call and you do beat some hands that would make this play such as TT, 99, 88. I would say there is a decent chance this player holds these hands. Of course, your opponent may have a Queen or even a boat, but with so much money in the pot, I think you need to make this call here.I have some opinions about the rest of the hand though. When you bet the flop, which is pretty much automatic to see where your at, what did you put him on when he called? Personally, I'd feel a lil bit iffy if a player calls my bet after I re-raised him pre-flop, especially with 2 queens out there. I think I may have been inclined to check behind on the turn. This may seem weak, but my reasoning is this, There are hands that I may be ahead of, but lots of hands that have me crushed as well. I take the free card here hoping to spike a Jack, but if I don't hit, it's not too bad either, because I may induce a bluff from my opponent or have him bet at me with a weaker pair as well. Of course, this leaves you with a tough river decision at times, but sometimes you may get a free showdown as well if your opponent checks to you. You will have to rely on your instincts and read of your opponent playing the hand this way, but I prefere doing it this way, rather than putting in so many chips where it gets hard to fold the hand at all.

[custom36 4]

1900 in the pot makes it a little over 3:1 in pot odds. I think that if you believe you're ahead one in every three times, you should be making this call. Granted, he has been running over the table but you don't want this to impair your judgement. You should have some kind of a read on him and I think you should be acting based on that.Personally, I'd probably call - but I'm not a good NLHE player.

[strategy 4]

I think the pot is 1930 by the time he check-raises you. Call me crazy, but he knows you know he's running over the table, so he really doesn't have to have much to pull this move, does he?Sheer curiosity, who is it?

[Guest]

Yeah, this whole hand is iffy. I love the way the entire hand was played until the villian moved all in.......I think at that point you have to start to hate your hand a bit. But, if he is being completely unpredictable and raising pretty much anything.......with the odds your getting you almost have to call. I think you can make a case for the fold, but there are so many hands that a maniac may play that way. There are alot of hands you have beat that he, being a maniac, would push with there.

[steve7stud 0]

Great response Jay. The game was really small for this player. So, he was literally raising with any two cards. Essentially just bullying the table. VERY difficult to put him on any hand in particular.

[Guest]

I should've prefaced my response by saying I dont find myself to be a great NLHE cash game player.......But I still think you call here. I would call anyway.

[steve7stud 0]

Yeah, this whole hand is iffy. I love the way the entire hand was played until the villian moved all in.......I think at that point you have to start to hate your hand a bit. But, if he is being completely unpredictable and raising pretty much anything.......with the odds your getting you almost have to call. I think you can make a case for the fold, but there are so many hands that a maniac may play that way. There are alot of hands you have beat that he, being a maniac, would push with there.

This guy was a TOTAL MANIAC

[steve7stud 0]

1900 in the pot makes it a little over 3:1 in pot odds.  I think that if you believe you're ahead one in every three times, you should be making this call.  Granted, he has been running over the table but you don't want this to impair your judgement.  You should have some kind of a read on him and I think you should be acting based on that.Personally, I'd probably call - but I'm not a good NLHE player.

He was pretty tough to read.

[jayboogie 0]

I've got the pot at a different number. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I have. I've got the pot at 2430 after the player moves all-in. Steve has 600 left and therefore the pot is laying him 4:1 on the call. preflop=$530 flop=$500turn=$1400

[custom36 4]

I've got the pot at a different number.  Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I have.  I've got the pot at 2430 after the player moves all-in.  Steve has 600 left and therefore the pot is laying him 4:1 on the call.  preflop=$530  flop=$500turn=$1400

OP says the pot is $530 after the flop. Those are the numbers I was using.Regardless, given that villain's a maniac and you're getting 3:1 or 4:1 odds to call this, I've just gotta call here.

[jayboogie 0]

Great response Jay. The game was really small for this player. So, he was literally raising with any two cards. Essentially just bullying the table. VERY difficult to put him on any hand in particular.

If this is the case, then I particularly like slowing down on the turn. I think by checking the turn, you lose the minimum against a hand with a Queen, because I think your opponent likely puts in a smallish value bet on the river with a queen in his hand. You also may have weaker hands bet into you such as smaller pairs that you can pick off. One of my rules for playing No Limit are not to play a big pot without a big hand. I think your Jacks are not that strong here, so I'd prefere to not play such a big pot with a board like this. Particularly if you know your opponent is tricky and capable of putting you to a decision for all your chips at any time.

[steve7stud 0]

I've got the pot at a different number.  Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I have.  I've got the pot at 2430 after the player moves all-in.  Steve has 600 left and therefore the pot is laying him 4:1 on the call.  preflop=$530  flop=$500turn=$1400

OP says the pot is $530 after the flop. Those are the numbers I was using.Regardless, given that villain's a maniac and you're getting 3:1 or 4:1 odds to call this, I've just gotta call here.

I need to change the numbers, I just realized the error. Thanks for pointing it out.

[KDawgCometh 2]

though I have no experience playing many pros live. I do wonder which pro it is, cause that would help me with what to think here. NOw I don't know if someone like Phil Laak plays the same cash game style that he does in tournies, but someone like him I could imagine would be very aggressive and do this type of run em over style on a NL table, okay now down to the analysis:well, he raised PF so we know that he has....two cards. with that type of flop, he knows that you can be an aggressive player yourself, so either you hit big, or are a little confused where you stand. You bet 250 into a 530 pot, so right there you are in someways saying that I don't have a queen, this is where he probably decides to make a move any low turn. If I was in his position, I'd probably be reading you for a hand like 88,99 or maybe even J10s. After he calls the flop there is now 1030 in the pot. YOur bet of 400 to me is indicating for sure that you don't have a queen, so right here he is proably thinking that if he raises you all-in you'd be getting 4-1, so it would look like a value call with any PP lower than a queen on your part, which in NLHE can always be scary when someone is making one of those plays, but he knows that you know this. And knowing that he knows that you know this might make me lean towards calling because he probably had this play mapped out right on your flop bet, and most likely thought that he could push you off a hand like 99 or 88, which if you held those pairs, I probably would as he could very well have a hand like J7s or something along those lines. I don't think that he has a King or ace, so if you are ahead here, you have him smoked

[steve7stud 0]

Okay, made a quick update about the pot size. The betting was the same, I just forgot to add the flop bet into the pot. Should be clear now.

[Guest]

If this is the case, then I particularly like slowing down on the turn.  I think by checking the turn, you lose the minimum against a hand with a Queen, because I think your opponent likely puts in a smallish value bet on the river with a queen in his hand.  You also may have weaker hands bet into you such as smaller pairs that you can pick off.  One of my rules for playing No Limit are not to play a big pot without a big hand.  I think your Jacks are not that strong here, so I'd prefere to not play such a big pot with a board like this.  Particularly if you know your opponent is tricky and capable of putting you to a decision for all your chips at any time.

For whatever its worth (and again, I am by no means a good NLHE cash player), but I dont think I agree with this. If you know the player is simply having a nutbar session, he doesn't have to have a queen to be making this play. I would think with the read he has on the villian the jacks are a strong hand. The pot is laying him 3:1, you only have to be right one in three times to make this a +EV play (yeah, I'm restating what Custom already said). Just a thought.......

[steve7stud 0]

though I have no experience playing many pros live. I do wonder which pro it is, cause that would help me with what to think here. NOw I don't know if someone like Phil Laak plays the same cash game style that he does in tournies, but someone like him I could imagine would be very aggressive and do this type of run em over style on a NL table, okay now down to the analysis:well, he raised PF so we know that he has....two cards. with that type of flop, he knows that you can be an aggressive player yourself, so either you hit big, or are a little confused where you stand. You bet 250 into a 530 pot, so right there you are in someways saying that I don't have a queen, this is where he probably decides to make a move any low turn. If I was in his position, I'd probably be reading you for a hand like 88,99 or maybe even J10s. After he calls the flop there is now 1030 in the pot. YOur bet of 400 to me is indicating for sure that you don't have a queen, so right here he is proably thinking that if he raises you all-in you'd be getting 4-1, so it would look like a value call with any PP lower than a queen on your part, which in NLHE can always be scary when someone is making one of those plays, but he knows that you know this. And knowing that he knows that you know this might make me lean towards calling because he probably had this play mapped out right on your flop bet, and most likely thought that he could push you off a hand like 99 or 88, which if you held those pairs, I probably would as he could very well have a hand like J7s or something along those lines. I don't think that he has a King or ace, so if you are ahead here, you have him smoked

Great analysis. It wasn't Phil Laak, but I will talk about some hands that I played with him. The real problem that I had with my opponent, was the he was better then me. He knew it and I knew it. With that line of thinking, my best play might have been to move all in on the turn instead of betting $400.

[steve7stud 0]

If this is the case, then I particularly like slowing down on the turn.  I think by checking the turn, you lose the minimum against a hand with a Queen, because I think your opponent likely puts in a smallish value bet on the river with a queen in his hand.  You also may have weaker hands bet into you such as smaller pairs that you can pick off.  One of my rules for playing No Limit are not to play a big pot without a big hand.  I think your Jacks are not that strong here, so I'd prefere to not play such a big pot with a board like this.  Particularly if you know your opponent is tricky and capable of putting you to a decision for all your chips at any time.

For whatever its worth (and again, I am by no means a good NLHE cash player), but I dont think I agree with this. If you know the player is simply having a nutbar session, he doesn't have to have a queen to be making this play. I would think with the read he has on the villian the jacks are a strong hand. The pot is laying him 3:1, you only have to be right one in three times to make this a +EV play (yeah, I'm restating what Custom already said). Just a thought.......

Again, assuming that the guy was having a nut bar session. I still couldn't get a read on him. But, I think he sure had a heck of a read on me.

[jayboogie 0]

If this is the case, then I particularly like slowing down on the turn.  I think by checking the turn, you lose the minimum against a hand with a Queen, because I think your opponent likely puts in a smallish value bet on the river with a queen in his hand.  You also may have weaker hands bet into you such as smaller pairs that you can pick off.  One of my rules for playing No Limit are not to play a big pot without a big hand.  I think your Jacks are not that strong here, so I'd prefere to not play such a big pot with a board like this.  Particularly if you know your opponent is tricky and capable of putting you to a decision for all your chips at any time.

For whatever its worth (and again, I am by no means a good NLHE cash player), but I dont think I agree with this. If you know the player is simply having a nutbar session, he doesn't have to have a queen to be making this play. I would think with the read he has on the villian the jacks are a strong hand. The pot is laying him 3:1, you only have to be right one in three times to make this a +EV play (yeah, I'm restating what Custom already said). Just a thought.......

My point is that if his opponent has a Queen, then your in bad shape. By checking the turn, you induce bluffs and weaker pairs to bet, while also losing the minimum if your opponent does have a Queen. Yeah sure, you may have the best hand, but do you really like getting your money in there when your not sure if you even have the best hand? The pot is laying him 4:1 actually and I said that it was a calling situation in this spot if the hand was played out this way. I was simply stating an alternate way to play the hand, which is the route I probably would have gone.

[Guest]

My point is that if his opponent has a Queen, then your in bad shape.  By checking the turn, you induce bluffs and weaker pairs to bet, while also losing the minimum if your opponent does have a Queen.  Yeah sure, you may have the best hand, but do you really like getting your money in there when your not sure if you even have the best hand?  The pot is laying him 4:1 actually and I said that it was a calling situation in this spot if the hand was played out this way.  I was simply stating an alternate way to play the hand, which is the route I probably would have gone.

Yeah, I went with the pot size somebody said earlier. Meh. Math was never my strong suit *lol*Totally understand your line on that. I think I misread what you said earlier. Not the line I would've taken, but I also dont think its in any way wrong to play the hand that way. You are way behind to a queen there, and you hate getting your money in being that far behind.

[steve7stud 0]

Is this an easy play? Or are there some problems with the scenario in general?

[KDawgCometh 2]

Is this an easy play? Or are there some problems with the scenario in general?

I don't think that its easy at all. I think if you had more money, and he raised you all-in, you just have to laugh and say ya outplayed me on this one. But his reraise to put you in, is just small enough to where you have to call, which makes you want to fold even more. The key is that this player knows that you are good enough to fold here, so he is trying to do what looks to be a value raise on his part. I think the other key is that the 7K in front of him is probably what he wipes himself with, so he is probably using his rep and his now table image to kill the table, he can make these plays against people like you steve, and he will value bet, or overbet the donks at the table. sounds like a fun and not fun night of play

[jayboogie 0]

I wouldn't say this is an easy play at all. I mean playing an unpredictable loose aggressive player that knows what he's doing is hard enough. I think being aggressive is good, but knowing when to put the breaks on is important as well. When you bet 400 on the turn, you kind of put yourself in a situation where your calling the extra 600 in most instances. Pushing all-in on the turn is probably better than the 400 bet on the turn IMO. If I were your opponent, I would have played a Queen this exact same way thinking I'd get a call from a high pocket pair.

[steve7stud 0]

Is this an easy play? Or are there some problems with the scenario in general?

I don't think that its easy at all. I think if you had more money, and he raised you all-in, you just have to laugh and say ya outplayed me on this one. But his reraise to put you in, is just small enough to where you have to call, which makes you want to fold even more. The key is that this player knows that you are good enough to fold here, so he is trying to do what looks to be a value raise on his part. I think the other key is that the 7K in front of him is probably what he wipes himself with, so he is probably using his rep and his now table image to kill the table, he can make these plays against people like you steve, and he will value bet, or overbet the donks at the table. sounds like a fun and not fun night of play

The session was a lot of fun. And my opponent certainly was better then me. But I did learn a lot.

[steve7stud 0]

I wouldn't say this is an easy play at all.  I mean playing an unpredictable loose aggressive player that knows what he's doing is hard enough.  I think being aggressive is good, but knowing when to put the breaks on is important as well.  When you bet 400 on the turn, you kind of put yourself in a situation where your calling the extra 600 in most instances.  Pushing all-in on the turn is probably better than the 400 bet on the turn IMO.  If I were your opponent, I would have played a Queen this exact same way thinking I'd get a call from a high pocket pair.

I think I mentioned at one point earlier on, that the best play might have been to move all in on the turn. But hey, great minds think alike.