read of the century

[JFarrell20 1]

OK, OK, not the read of the century but I would like to submit this for "read of the day". I think it would be kinda fun if people posted their "best read" everyday and maybe we could vote on the "read of the day"??? Just a thought. Obviously it would work better for NL, but it could also work for limit. Anyway, here goes. This was Saturday morn', .5/1 limit table. I will post the hand and you guys can comment on it. If I need to respond I will do so after a few comments have been posted. I will post my "thought process". Pay attention to the chat. It's not phony.#Game No : 1688754424 ***** Hand History for Game 1688754424 *****$0.5/$1 Hold'em - Saturday, March 05, 11:53:33 EDT 2005Table Table 13107 (Real Money)Seat 2 is the buttonTotal number of players : 10 Seat 2: willardka30 ( $35 )Seat 5: findingnico ( $31.5 )Seat 7: JTOhara ( $34.5 )Seat 8: tractor12 ( $9.63 )Seat 9: fllynhavok ( $45.69 )Seat 10: JFarrell20 ( $47 )Seat 1: Macncheese ( $23.25 )Seat 6: Azpinhead ( $16.5 )Seat 3: Mymra ( $25.69 )Seat 4: wipeout68 ( $24.37 )Mymra posts small blind [$0.25].wipeout68 posts big blind [$0.5].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to JFarrell20 [ Ad Qc ]findingnico folds.Azpinhead calls [$0.5].JTOhara folds.fllynhavok folds.JFarrell20: so if i bet on the turn are you folding your K? <--disregard thisJFarrell20 raises [$1].Macncheese folds.willardka30 folds.Mymra folds.fllynhavok: heads up in .5/1 is nothign heheh <--disregard thiswipeout68 folds.Azpinhead calls [$0.5].** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, Tc, 4d ]Azpinhead checks.JFarrell20 bets [$0.5].Azpinhead calls [$0.5].** Dealing Turn ** [ Ah ]Azpinhead checks.JFarrell20 bets [$1].Azpinhead calls [$1].** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]fllynhavok: nah its a buck, im just playing here while in a tourney to mess around <--disregard thisAzpinhead checks.JFarrell20: you better not have Ace 4fllynhavok: im about to sit out for awile <--disregard thisJFarrell20: i have a bad feelingJFarrell20 checks.Azpinhead shows [ As, 4s ] a full house, Fours full of aces.JFarrell20 shows [ Ad, Qc ] two pairs, aces and fours.Azpinhead wins $5.25 from the main pot with a full house, Fours full of aces.Game #1688758635 starts.fllynhavok: wowWell what do you think? I saved 2 big bets on the end. If I bet out he's going to raise and I'm forced to call. Many of you may say that I should have bet out on the end because it's a low probability that he has the '4', but I had a bad feeling. Actually, a lot of hands beat me here, but if he bets, I'm calling. Since he checked (and had smooth-called me down the whole way), knowing I'd bet the end, he could easily raise me. His check on the end was very peculiar. He knew I'd bet, just so he could raise me. Somehow I just knew he had A4. Frankly, I'm surprised I trusted my read as usually I'd say what they have, then bet anyway, then have them show me I was right. lol.I ended up -$1 after 45 minutes during this session. Could have been -$3. I showed my gf but she didn't seem impressed, "it's only $2." she said. But when you consider "dominating" the game is winning 3BB/hour, and I save 2 BB on one hand, that is a big deal. Regardless, she still wasn't impressed. lol.

[Wily 0]

if your opponent was anywhere near a good player, he would've only smoothcalled you on the turn with something that beat a single pair of aces, or with a drawing hand that could beat it. On the river, if he was going for the club flush, he'd have missed it, and folded to your bet anyway. On the flop, he had to have something (a draw, a set, or a low pair, like he did in this hand) to have called; it was fairly clear to me by his turn call that he had you beat even then. So perhaps your river check through wouldn't have only been a result of your read on him, but also just the correct play given some deep thought on the reasons for his call on the turn. Of course, this deep thought probably occurs in less than 1% of hands at .5/1 limit online, so good job (I probably would've bet and been raised).

[JFarrell20 1]

Yeah, like I said, a lot of hands do worry me here... AK, A4, A10, A8.... all of which he could have had with his middle pos. limp. You are right, obviously his smooth call for $1 on the turn when an ace flops was very curious to me. AK doesn't worry me b/c he didnt raise pre-flop, but you never know with the fish...they don't protect their hands.The check on the river by him really sent warning signals off to me though. I mean I'd raised pre-flop... bet the flop... bet the turn which told me that he knew I was going to bet on the end. That's why his check scared me. It somehow told me he was looking for the Check/raise. And the only hand he would have C/R'd me with here is A4, 44, or AA. AA and 44 were kind of far-fetched. Somehow it was just very clear he had A4Honestly, I know it only saved me $2, but it was the best read I'd had in a while. Saving $2 at a .5/1 table could be the difference between a winning and a losing player.

[the_stein 0]

s0 this iss what wrto was talking about... lol

[Smasharoo 0]

Worst river check in history.Stop pissing money away.He has you beat from the flop on, shame you dind't figure it out then.

[JFarrell20 1]

Worst river check in history.Stop censored money away.He has you beat from the flop on, shame you dind't figure it out then.

How would you have played this hand, Smash?PS: Try to act like it's not me who posted, so you have some sense of objectivity.

[dominiksdad 0]

In my experience his play (check/flat call) is more commonly going to indicate a flush draw Ac X. In which case your AQ is often going to be the best hand.Yes you saved 2BB this time, but you lose out on one BB all the other times when he was drawing and calls you down with A-rag.

[wrto4556 0]

Worst river check in history.

[JFarrell20 1]

Yeah this is pretty much a good cross-section of the responses I was prepared to receive. It shows the level of humility in this forum, or lack thereof. Had I played it your way, I'd have typed in "haha, you missed your flush!", then bet, then got raised, then called, and ended up losing $2. I think you guys need to rediscover the definition of a "read". IMHO, he was much more likely to play A4, A10, A8, or AK than club-club. Granted, had he flopped a four-flush he did have the odds to call down, but if he calls a raise pre-flop in a heads-up pot, looking to make a flush, he is playing bad poker. Chasing a flush in a heads-up pot and making it isn't even as fun as skiing in Kansas.PS: I appreciate the sincere comments I've received so far. I would still love to see how Smash would have played this hand, as well as WRTO for that matter. Saying, and quoting "worst check in history" isn't helping anybody in this forum, regardless of whether you hate them on a personal level.

[Smasharoo 0]

How would you have played this hand, Smash? Raise, bet, bet, bet.Not rocket science.

[Smasharoo 0]

Had I played it your way, I'd have typed in "haha, you missed your flush!", then bet, then got raised, then called, and ended up losing $2.I think you guys need to rediscover the definition of a "read". I think you need to stop posting hands where you make a dreadfully horrible decision that's costing you tons of money on every hand but the one you post where it happens to work out.It's like me capping every street with 72o every time I get it and just posting hands where I win and saying my play was based on reads.Understand?

[piki 0]

Eh, you should trust your guts here and there. Props for saving 2BB.

[Wily 0]

Had I played it your way, I'd have typed in "haha, you missed your flush!", then bet, then got raised, then called, and ended up losing $2.I think you guys need to rediscover the definition of a "read". I think you need to stop posting hands where you make a dreadfully horrible decision that's costing you tons of money on every hand but the one you post where it happens to work out.It's like me capping every street with 72o every time I get it and just posting hands where I win and saying my play was based on reads.Understand?

No offense, but I think your suggestion here (and many of the recommendations you post) point to a certain formula for playing poker - one that, given a certain hand, position, set of number of players, flop, etc. , would have you make the same moves no matter what kind of read you had on an opponent or his playing style. Your formulaic poker clearly makes money in online limit hold'em games, but is it maximizing your profits/minimizing your losses? I'm sure it is better than most people's game plans or players without a clear plan for playing, but playing a set formula for every hand might prevent you from making reads like the poster did on this hand that might save you chips or make more chips. Wouldn't studying the reasons for the opponent's call on the turn (where he probably had something that beat a pair of aces, or a draw that almost guaranteed didn't hit on the river) cause you to check the river here, and make you money in the long run?

[Smasharoo 0]

. Your formulaic poker clearly makes money in online limit hold'em games, but is it maximizing your profits/minimizing your losses?Yup.Wouldn't studying the reasons for the opponent's call on the turn (where he probably had something that beat a pair of aces, or a draw that almost guaranteed didn't hit on the river) cause you to check the river here, and make you money in the long run?Nope.

[wrto4556 0]

Wouldn't studying the reasons for the opponent's call on the turn (where he probably had something that beat a pair of aces, or a draw that almost guaranteed didn't hit on the river) cause you to check the river here, and make you money in the long run?

That's if only a better hand will call you. In this case there are alot worse hands that will call you...especially at these limits. KT, AJ, A9, A8 etc.

[jayboogie 0]

your lucky the guy misplayed his hand. he should have check-raised the turn and you would have been stuck for the same damage. I love the players who get cute and try to check raise on the river, if my hand is not too strong, I usually check right behind. But, in this case, you have your top pair strong kicker, unless the board drops a 3rd club, you have to bet out. Your read was luck more than anything, he could have check called you with anything there if he hit something. Your top pair is good here more often than not, so you put the bets in there.

[JFarrell20 1]

That's if only a better hand will call you. In this case there are alot worse hands that will call you...especially at these limits. KT, AJ, A9, A8 etc.

A8 actually beats me here, wrto. You really think KX calls me here? I raised pre-flop, he called. He checked the flop (probably not gonna happen if he flops a king). Then an ace comes and he check/calls with just a king? I mean that would be truly awful of him. I'll give you AJ, but why wouldn't he bet out on the river with AJ? I seriously doubt he's looking to c/r with AJ. His check somehow told me that he made his boat and was looking to get 2 bets out of me.SMASH: What if I told you the last 4 hands this guy showed down were Ax? Also, what if I told you I'd seen him show down 20 hands and none of which were suited? Sure, it's difficult to really get a "read" from the internet, but it is possible. BTW, I wasn't multi-tabling here. This was my only table running.

[Smasharoo 0]

SMASH: What if I told you the last 4 hands this guy showed down were Ax? Also, what if I told you I'd seen him show down 20 hands and none of which were suited? Sure, it's difficult to really get a "read" from the internet, but it is possible. BTW, I wasn't multi-tabling here. This was my only table running.Checking this river still sucks.If it were the 4 of clubs you'd have a case. It's not though.

[Guest XXEddie]

dont necesarily think you having a "bad feeling" is a good readmine came when I still lost a potthis was 3rd hand of SnG 10/20, start w/ 1000MP raised to 3xBBfolds to me in BB with KQs, I callflop AJ5 all spades(i was suited in spades)I bet about 50 he raises to 100I figured he has AA, JJ or...maybe 55So I do the stupid thing and move all in he calls has JJ turn is an A.....maybe I shoulda just folded pre-flop.....meh...

[JFarrell20 1]

dont necesarily think you having a "bad feeling" is a good readmine came when I still lost a potthis was 3rd hand of SnG 10/20, start w/ 1000MP raised to 3xBBfolds to me in BB with KQs, I callflop AJ5 all spades(i was suited in spades)I bet about 50 he raises to 100I figured he has AA, JJ or...maybe 55So I do the stupid thing and move all in he calls has JJ turn is an A.....maybe I shoulda just folded pre-flop.....meh...

Not sure how this relates to the thread but, ok. What's with everyone saying "meh" now? Is that the newest form of Smash a$$-kissing?Typical Smashian post:I love you Smash. Meh. /shrug.

[Briguy 0]

I've been saying "meh" for many, many years. I've only been on this forum for a couple of months. Smash must have some amazing powers, indeed.Such a schmeel.

[Smasharoo 0]

I've been saying "meh" for many, many years. I've only been on this forum for a couple of months. Smash must have some amazing powers, indeed.Such a schmeel.He just likes to kvetch about things.

[wrto4556 0]

That's if only a better hand will call you. In this case there are alot worse hands that will call you...especially at these limits. KT, AJ, A9, A8 etc.

A8 actually beats me here, wrto. You really think KX calls me here? I raised pre-flop, he called. He checked the flop (probably not gonna happen if he flops a king). Then an ace comes and he check/calls with just a king? I mean that would be truly awful of him. I'll give you AJ, but why wouldn't he bet out on the river with AJ? I seriously doubt he's looking to c/r with AJ. His check somehow told me that he made his boat and was looking to get 2 bets out of me.

You're missing the point of this thread. Do you understand what i'm telling you or are you just trying to defend your play?KT had top pair on the flop and will call the whole way. You have passive players. QT and JT and T9 will call you. Any lone A with a weaker, unpaired kicker will call you. Flush draws that actually paired will call you just to keep you honest...get my drift?You're ahead way too much to check and you're going to be called by worse hands.

[Guest XXEddie]

dont necesarily think you having a "bad feeling" is a good readmine came when I still lost a potthis was 3rd hand of SnG 10/20, start w/ 1000MP raised to 3xBBfolds to me in BB with KQs, I callflop AJ5 all spades(i was suited in spades)I bet about 50 he raises to 100I figured he has AA, JJ or...maybe 55So I do the stupid thing and move all in he calls has JJ turn is an A.....maybe I shoulda just folded pre-flop.....meh...

Not sure how this relates to the thread but, ok. What's with everyone saying "meh" now? Is that the newest form of Smash a$$-kissing?Typical Smashian post:I love you Smash. Meh. /shrug.

you said "I think it would be kinda fun if people posted their "best read""...so I did...and yes "meh" is a way to kiss smash's ass because as we all know, Smash invented that word

[JFarrell20 1]

Had I titled this thread "By-the-book play of the century", then yes, you may all be correct in saying that I was wrong for checking, and should have bet out.