Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:46 PM
Thanks for approving me. I might forget to come back to this thread later, but feel free to bug me on Twitter if I don't.OP, I appreciate that you're upset, and I think you're somewhat justified. I'll try to address your concerns, but there's sort of a lot of them, so I'll probably leave something out. Please please please don't take my leaving something out as evidence of anything other than laziness, stupidity, and/or forgetfulness.(Note that this is all from memory since the forums are down right now. I'm sure I've gotten something wrong, and I'm sorry for that.)Anyway, OP obviously cares about this a lot, so I figure he deserves a thorough response. Plus, I'm long-winded to begin with and have lots of thoughts on modding 2p2 that I wouldn't mind writing down. So, here's my long-ass response.Background WRT OPOP is basically a decent poster who doesn't cause problems. He has a strong interest in a few theories of his (Sorry for putting words in your mouth, but I think you wouldn't object to that), which is fine. But, he has a tendency to make many long posts about them in threads that really aren't about them. These are annoying for other posters because I don't think I've ever deleted any of OP's posts, but I have considered it at times because they're pretty derailing. (I did once move a thread of yours because I felt it was in the wrong forum. I don't really remember the story there, but I remember feeling sorta bad afterwards because you put a lot of work into it and weren't happy.) I think the other mods mostly left him alone before the day in question as well. I also never banned OP. (In general, I'm a very lax and lazy moderator. I probably delete less than one post per day on average, and I mod NVG, which has god-knows-how-many posts per day, many of them technically against a rule or whatever. I hate moderating because people naturally get upset when you delete something that they wrote.)Basically, I think most mods think of OP as someone who's really passionate about something, can be annoying about it, but doesn't really go too far. So, like, that's sorta the context. Background WRT 2p22p2's software sucks for moderating, and moderating NVG is really really hard, so that's a big problem. It particularly sucks in that it's really not set up properly to inform people when mods do take action. For example, there's no automatic notification to the user when her post is deleted, the room for the ban message is very short, and bans do not say which moderator banned them. I've been whining about this for a while, and pretty much everyone agrees that it should change as far as I can tell. But, 2p2 is very hesitant to make major changes to their forum software, so they haven't yet. I don't run one of the largest forums on the internet, so I don't really feel like I'm in a position to criticize them for that.This leads to a lot of confusion and anger from the few users who actually encounter mod action. Daniel experienced it not too long ago, and OP did as well. Mods have to deal with this, so it sucks for us as well.Also, most mods are unpaid volunteers like myself. From the outside, I see how it might feel like we're these authority figures who do Mason's bidding or something, but the reality of the situation is that we're people who have signed up to do an annoying chore because we like 2p2 and we feel like the chore is worth it. Just as an illustrative anecdote: When I asked to be a mod of NVG (because the then-current mods were busy at the time, so NVG had a lot of spam and gay porn and stuff in it that was quite annoying), a bunch of mods contacted me to tell me that I was an idiot because it's an unpaid extremely annoying "job". They were obviously right.We make plenty of mistakes--We're humans. We're doing a job that sucks that we're not paid for. There are a lot of judgement calls. We screw up. But, part of what sucks so much about being a mod is that everyone is always bothered when we delete what they wrote because that's how people are naturally. (I once had a post deleted, and I couldn't help but be pissed even though I clearly had just broken a rule.) So, a huge part of modding is having people contact me absolutely livid that I deleted their post that clearly deserved to be deleted. That's really annoying, and it makes me sad every time because I empathize, but it also makes it really hard to identify a true mistake, since we get complaints constantly.Also, there are no grand conspiracies. In fact, the exact opposite is true: Mason almost never communicates with the mods at all. When someone has a situation that they don't know how to handle, Mat Sklansky usually responds, and Mat almost always says the exact same thing (paraphrased): "It's your call. Do what you think is right." Nobody has ever given me an order in my capacity as mod on 2p2, and it would be really weird if they did. That's like the exact opposite of a conspiracy.Temp BanSo, OP posted something in that giant thread about Stars maybe buying FTP that PP deleted (I know Michael as PP, so I'll call him that). That thread was a nightmare because people were going there to read news and it was full of a billion derails and lots of crap, and it got a ton of complaints from users. (It's actually a really great example of a thread where moderating was really really needed, and a lot of people were thanking me for the effort that I put into making it slightly more readable.) So, I don't know why OP's post was deleted because the forums are down, but that's why it might have been. I don't really think that this is something that OP's complaining about.OP says he didn't know that it had been deleted, and I'll take him at his word. This goes back to the fact that 2p2's software sucks for moderating--OP should have gotten a message saying that it had been deleted, but the forum doesn't generate such messages. Ideally, PP would send OP a message, but that was a gigantic thread that needed a lot of moderation, so PMing everyone simply isn't at all practical.So, from his perspective, it might have been perfectly reasonable to just repost it. But, PP didn't know that OP was confused, obviously. (Maybe he should have assumed that he was confused? I don't know.) So, he saw this as OP deciding that he's just going to post shit whether mods want to delete it or not. Stuff like that is exactly why we have temp bans--to let someone who won't stop doing stuff that he obviously shouldn't do cool off. So, from PP's perspective that's a really obvious temp ban.Naturally, OP was really upset by this. He wrote a blog post about it calling PP and myself out (even though I'm not involved at all...). He tweeted at us on Twitter. Etc. I get that. It's a natural response. But, it's also not a good way to clear up a misunderstanding. It's really hard empathize with someone who's attacking you, though as mods we should try to.PermabanOP posted something in ATF complaining about his temp ban (don't remember the details). IMO, he should have every right to do so, but PP banned him. I completely disagree with this decision, and I said as much in the mod forum before the forum went down. I've talked about it with PP over skype just now, and he said he'll reconsider and he DMed OP to let him know.I mean.. he probably just made a mistake and will hopefully take it back. It's unfortunate, but mistakes are going to happen sometimes. It's particularly unfortunate because, in addition to you simply being upset that you're not allowed to psot on 2p2, which sucks already, you also now have come up with conspiracy theories about this stuff.StickyI'd had this idea for a while to create a sticky in NVG that said something to the effect of "Please make sure that your post is something that other people will want to read." I recognize that this is a bit patronizing, but a really really big problem with NVG is that people post stuff that clearly doesn't pass that test--random insults of other posters, "first!", etc. And, I'd tried something similar in various threads--coming in and posting something like "Hey, guys, please stop posting stuff like _______ because it's not really contributing." and that level of simple honesty seemed to really work well. So, I thought I'd try it in a sticky.The sticky itself was a bit goofy because, well, it's the internet and it's NVG and goofy is the standard. I included some examples, and I tried to make stuff a bit funny. Obviously, that means mocking some people, but this is the Internet--Daniel said that I (or the mods in general or whatever) treat 2p2 like it's North Korea ITT, for example. That's just sorta how the Internet works, and I'm comfortable joking about these things. Sorry if it hurt your feelings, but I don't really think there was anything inappropriate about my tone.With that said, someone actually pointed out to me that the post of yours that I quoted was in response to a direct question, so didn't really fit the description. So, I simply made a mistake there. I'm sure you can understand from my perspective how that post looked like it was a derail. I'm sorry about that, and I was going to change it but the forums went down. (I'm not making this up.. It's in the ATF thread about my sticky.) I still will, of course.. Remind me if I forget.Some accusation of shilling for FTPYou've said this a few times. I don't know what it means. It's weird from my perspective to read that you have proof that I did things that I know I didn't do. I think you once posted what you meant, but I've since forgotten.A requestI really really don't like being accused of doing things that I haven't done publicly on the Internet. My reputation in the poker world is extremely important to me, and I put a lot of effort into trying to act as ethically as possible in this world. I mean.. I basically gave up nine months of my life to keep the poker community informed. It really bothers me that there are forum posts and blog posts and stuff about me saying that I've done things that I simply haven't.I get that you're saying this stuff because you think it's true, and I can handle a little name calling on the Internet. But, I would appreciate it if you considered my feelings, just like I think it's fair to say I've considered yours.