64 replies to this topic

[ajs510]

ShakeZuma, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 10:20 AM, said:

Ok.God gave us free will.God is all powerful.How are these both possible at the same time?If God were all powerful, shouldn't he be able to control human actions, therefore eliminating our free will?

That's only the tip of the Christian Contradiction iceberg...

[Canada]

brvheart, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 6:13 AM, said:

So the fact that there is a God of great power and divine nature has been clearly seen, being understood by looking at the creation. A little reflection will show how this is truly the case based on observations in the real world which even the slowest of men can deduce. Design demands a designer. One cannot take the 26 letters of the alphabet, throw them into a box, and shuffle them into a perfect poem. Nor can monkeys in a print shop come up with the Gettysburg Address, no matter how long you leave them there. Design demands a designer. If you were walking on a trail in the forest with a friend, and you both find a watch on the ground, how would you think it came into existence? Suppose your friend told you that he really and truly believed, the pieces of that watch formed and organized themselves up into a working time piece? Who would not think that person would be insane to actually believe that? Can one imagine a tornado blowing through a junk yard and producing a Boeing 747 Jet?

I think there is nothing that turns more people away from Christianity than the moronic dribble of creationists."Nor can monkeys in a print shop come up with the Gettysburg Address, no matter how long you leave them there." Interesting analogy, but I see the point you are trying to make. Unfortunately its flawed.If you do leave a bunch of monkeys typing away for any length of time, eventually they will type out the Gettysburg Address, along with the complete works of Shakespeare and ironically every version of the bible ever created, along with a 'new' version that has Harry Potter nailed to the cross. Its a mathematical fact.To quote Homer "It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times"?! you stupid monkey!This is amusing as anybody with a basic understanding of mathematics and the principles of infinity along with a sense of humour can atest.How does it apply to "Design demands a designer"?Well to put it simply, given that the universe is infinite and time is endless, any series of random events under those conditions will eventually produce exactly what we are experiencing now.That's keeping it simple, but you usually need to do that with creationists...I also love the way people keep 'proving' God exists, when the underlying principle of religion is faith.To plagarise & interchange somewhat:`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'`But,' says Man, `The Universe is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.

[Entrepeneur]

ajs510, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 7:38 AM, said:

That's only the tip of the Christian Contradiction iceberg...

Having the power/ability to do something and choosing to do it are 2 different things.I have the power/ability to stop my 3 year old from doing something that is wrong. I could physically make her not make a mistake.But...I choose to allow her to make her choices, make mistakes and learn from them. Yes...there are certain times when it is something that could really be damaging/hurtful to her, and I'll protect her from it.But...I do allow her to make small choices/mistakes and let her learn from those mistakes. It certainly does not mean I don't love her. Not at all. I do love her enough to allow her to make her own choices. At some point, I hope, she will begin to understand how much I love her. But...that's her choice.I have the ability to stop her, but at times I choose not to.I don't feel this all-powerful but free will thing is one of the "Many Christian contradictions."

[ShakeZuma]

Ok, so by that logic God could interfere in our lives, he just doesn't in order to protect our free will. So he refuses to help the homeless man who dies on the street while holding a Bible. He refuses to stop a priest from molesting an 8 year old boy in the confessional booth. He refuses to stop a man from raping and burying a young girl alive. To protect free will.If that is God, he's got a lot of explaining to do.

[Entrepeneur]

I also love the way people keep 'proving' God exists, when the underlying principle of religion is faith.To plagarise & interchange somewhat:`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'`But,' says Man, `The Universe is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.[/quote]Hadn't heard that quote before. Kind of funny.I think you are right in regards to proving God exists. I know of a scientist who is a Christian that often debates Creationism verses Evolution.His response to many is, "I can not physically prove God exists any more than you can prove He does not exist."It is a matter of faith and believing.I will not try to 'convince/force' my beliefs on anyone.I can't convince anyone to believe in God, anymore than I can convince a low-limit poker player that calling a 3/1 odds flush draw for 1/1 money is a bad play.For the record...I hate typing on these posts...You try to respond to someone, but no matter what...something you say will be able to be argued against and then you end up trying to fight to defend something you said against someone who is arguing just for the sake of argument.I try to talk intelligently, but any illustration can fail at some point...and there are plenty of people looking for that point.Wow...ADD is apparently kicking in...sorry

[Entrepeneur]

ShakeZuma, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 8:14 AM, said:

Ok, so by that logic God could interfere in our lives, he just doesn't in order to protect our free will. So he refuses to help the homeless man who dies on the street while holding a Bible. He refuses to stop a priest from molesting an 8 year old boy in the confessional booth. He refuses to stop a man from raping and burying a young girl alive. To protect free will.If that is God, he's got a lot of explaining to do.

Nice point (not sw there)It's a standard argument/discussion point in regards to if God exists...And...I'm a horrible defender at times of what I believe.I believe...God is a just God. I believe that He allows all humans to make choices. I believe if He does allow us to make choices under the premise of free will, that He would not necessarily intervene and allow some people to make choices and some not. That does not seems to be a consistent belief in free will.So...yeah..God does allow those things to happen. I don't like how things happen in the world, but I know that we humans have the ability to make our own choices. So..when people have choices to make, sometimes they are not great choices (playing 2 accounts in a Party Poker tournament...etc.)I was about to say that I hope you don't take offense to what I said (I've tried to say that this is what I believe). I don't mean to tell you how to live in any way, shape or form.But...I know that to someone who doesn't believe in God, the idea of a God who allows bad things to happen is not a God they would want to believe in.I understand that. It just seems that if He is going to be consistent on allowing us to make choices, He has to allow everyone to make choices (even ones that are detrimental to society).Great..babbling even more...More of a can of worms open..So be it...

[ShakeZuma]

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 11:34 AM, said:

I believe...God is a just God. I believe that He allows all humans to make choices. I believe if He does allow us to make choices under the premise of free will, that He would not necessarily intervene and allow some people to make choices and some not. That does not seems to be a consistent belief in free will.So...yeah..God does allow those things to happen. I don't like how things happen in the world, but I know that we humans have the ability to make our own choices. So..when people have choices to make, sometimes they are not great choices (playing 2 accounts in a Party Poker tournament...etc.)

Thank you for a reasonable post. That playing 2 accounts thing made me laugh. I see what you mean kinda like "show one show all" or something, I don't know. I just think that if thats the way he runs things, he must not be that nice, or doesn't really care.

[Entrepeneur]

This post removed by original poster because of apparently stupid comments within it..Original poster out of school for 15 years, making comments out of his anal region from what he remembers from school.In listening to newer evidence and theories, removes post because it has the same weight value as "I think Moneymaker is the BEST poker player in the WORLD." Apologies from original poster...Original poster is now going back to read Sklansky to see if his pushing hard on the button with 2/7suited was really such a good +ev idea in the first place.No need to continue flaming the flood/carbon dating/dinosaur posts...flames are hot enough already...Thanks.Original Poster just wanted to type out Original Poster one more time.There..I feel better.ThanksOriginal Poster

[Canada]

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 4:21 PM, said:

I also love the way people keep 'proving' God exists, when the underlying principle of religion is faith.To plagarise & interchange somewhat:`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'`But,' says Man, `The Universe is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.Hadn't heard that quote before. Kind of funny.I think you are right in regards to proving God exists. I know of a scientist who is a Christian that often debates Creationism verses Evolution.His response to many is, "I can not physically prove God exists any more than you can prove He does not exist."It is a matter of faith and believing.I will not try to 'convince/force' my beliefs on anyone.I can't convince anyone to believe in God, anymore than I can convince a low-limit poker player that calling a 3/1 odds flush draw for 1/1 money is a bad play.For the record...I hate typing on these posts...You try to respond to someone, but no matter what...something you say will be able to be argued against and then you end up trying to fight to defend something you said against someone who is arguing just for the sake of argument.I try to talk intelligently, but any illustration can fail at some point...and there are plenty of people looking for that point.Wow...ADD is apparently kicking in...sorry

Very nice post.I do actually enjoy discussing religion with sane, open-minded people who are willing to admit they don't have all the answers (either scientific or religous)I've responded in a few threads here, but I've yet to find a poster who is a credit to the 'religous side'.Take Loismustdie for example. IQ lower than a dripping tap, believes everything he says has to be true (usually because he types it in CAPS making it Gospel ), refuses to back down when he makes glaringly stupid remarks and abuses posters left right and centreIf I was God I would tell him to piss-off and join the other teamThat said, the 'non-religous side' definately have it easier, they have logic on their side and are not hindered (sw) by the faith required on the other.When discussing sombodies religion and I hear them say (or type) that they don't have all the answers, but they take it on faith, they get my respect and I will listen/discussWhen I hear them say "I have proof" it gets my back up, because invariably they don't

[Mattnxtc]

Ive always thought about it this way...feel free to disagree if you likeIf God protected all christians then wouldnt you want to be a christian to? If you saw christians succeeding at everything they did and never getting sick or getting hurt wouldnt that make you want to be one too? I think everybody would agree that to have that kind of protection would make anybody want to be a part of that group. BUT What does that accomplish in the eyes of God. You came to believe in Him not out of love but b/c you wanted to be safe. That isnt what He is looking for. We are told to expect to suffer. The Disciples and the Apostle Paul all suffered brutal deaths for what they believed. But then you realize that this life is only temporary. Only a split second in the grand scheme of time. So while you may suffer for a short time on earth you spend an eternity in heaven. Now why does that mean that innocent peopel must suffer? Who knows. God has been in control for long enough that I trust He knows what He is doing. Do I agree with it all? No b/c obviously its horrible what happens to people. But does good come of these situations? Yes

[Entrepeneur]

ShakeZuma, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 8:39 AM, said:

Thank you for a reasonable post. That playing 2 accounts thing made me laugh. I see what you mean kinda like "show one show all" or something, I don't know. I just think that if thats the way he runs things, he must not be that nice, or doesn't really care.

Thank you as well. I enjoy conversations. I don't care for preachers, per se.I don't ever know how to respond to a Non-loving God comment. That's the best comment I could ever come up with. My officials reponse is, "I don't know..."I've always thought that God loves us so much, but He also allows us to make choices. If God does truly loves us, I don't think as He is watching people make choices that He's not nice.I think He sees what is happening..But because He is not responding to it, doesn't mean that He doesn't care. As I said earlier (in my slightly hole filled analogy of my daughter). Me watching her do something wrong and allowing it does not imply that I don't care or am mean. I am simply allowing her to make her choices.It certainly does not mean that it does not break my heart to see her make those choices, but I do allow her to make them.My thought would be, don't confuse allowing something to happen with apathy.I don't think that's an a + b = c argument. Again, thanks for discussion..I probably ought to go to work. Gotta get a little done today.Thanks.I'm being prepared to be flamed like crazy about this other post (with the dinosaurs and the age of the earth)..Such is life. If you type quick and hit send, that's what happens.Thanks again.Jeff(so people can use my name when flaming...)

[keith crime]

"You know the world's 12 thousand years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the ****ing Bible at some point. "And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big ****ing lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat ****ing families and their fat dollar bills.And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord." "Get this, I actually asked one of these guys, OK, Dinosaurs fossils - how does that fit into you scheme of life? Let me sit down and strap in. He said, "Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith." I think God put you here to test my faith, Dude. You believe that? "uh huh." Does that trouble anyone here? The idea that God.. might be.. ****in' with our heads? I have trouble sleeping with that knowledge. Some prankster God running around: "Hu hu ho. We will see who believes in me now, ha ha." [mimes God burying fossils] "I am God, I am a prankster." "I am killing Me."Bill HIcks

[Canada]

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 4:49 PM, said:

quote"This is amusing as anybody with a basic understanding of mathematics and the principles of infinity along with a sense of humour can atest.Well to put it simply, given that the universe is infinite and time is endless, any series of random events under those conditions will eventually produce exactly what we are experiencing now."As I understand it, it's quite possible that the earth is really between 10,000 and 20,000 years old

Well science says its closer to 4.5 billion - also don't confuse the Earth and the universe

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 4:49 PM, said:

Carbon dating giving indications to be faulty and inconsistent

Carbon dating is faulty and inconsitent. It is probably only accurate to 60,000 yearsThere are other means of dating that are much more accurate

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 4:49 PM, said:

The 'fossilized' trees discovered through layers of rock that happened 10s of millions of years at a time (Bottom part of tree in 100million years ago, middle of tree 50 million and top of tree20 million years ago)...Virtually impossible for tree to remain standing and to fossilize within those different levels, but those levels having been claimed to be millions of years apart from each other. The other option is that a huge blanket/canopy of water was over the earth and created a huge flood. When that flood subsided, layers of sediment did too, with trees and other things settling into the mud/muck at one time, allowing for the possibility of fossilizing.

I think you refuted your own point there

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 4:49 PM, said:

Also, if you extrapolate backwards on the land masses floating apart (as they appear to have at one time been connected), 100 million years would be too much time for the land masses to be where they are.

you are assuming that continental shift is consistent and that Pangea (or whatever the 1 land mass was called) was in situ 100 million years ago (is this your number/guess for the scientific age of Earth) and how Earth 'started'There were countless cofigurations that led to the beginning of todays land masses

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 4:49 PM, said:

Same thing also applies to the slight change in rotation of our planet to the sun. 100million years (or billion of years) would place us in a rotation that was uninhabitable by the plants/animals/dinosaurs that roamed the earth.

Not exactly sure what you are referring to here. Can you point me to any references?And the rest (sorry the board mugged me...

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 4:49 PM, said:

I'm not saying that monkeys couldn't come up with the Gettysburg Address (Hey...donkeys play cards now-a-days)...

Take the monkeys/Gettysburg Address thing and reword it to readIf I had and endless(infinite) stream of random letters, eventually somewhere in there would be the Gettysburg Address Another simplified example is that you are guarenteed to find your telephone number somewhere in the digits of pi. Its just a different scale

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 4:49 PM, said:

(Hey...donkeys play cards now-a-days)...It just takes as much if not more faith to believe in some of the theories of evolution as it does in an all-powerful being that created everything.and..there are still dinosaurs on the earth anyway.

There are a lot of people, some who are extremely intelligent and open-minded that find it easier to have faith in evolution.So this point is actually your personal opinion.A fact that a lot of religious people overlook

[Entrepeneur]

Keith,I'm not sure I've seen anywhere in the Bible where the disciples dropped the "F-Bomb." But..hey I've got an older translation.First of all..the guy that responsed "To test our faith..." That's just stupid. Hurray for yet another stupid argument in trying to defend the faith.As for dinosaurs on the earth...Most indications are that they existed before the flood (canopy of water)...Generally speaking there are two large creatures unknown in complete origin mentioned in the Bible..To me..these seem to fit the definition of a LARGE, LARGE ANIMAL.Not proof that they were or not...jsut saying that there were certainly huge creatures that were referenced in the Bible that seem to be of the Dinosaur type size.Leviathan and BehemothJob 3:8May those who curse days curse that day, those who are ready to rouse Leviathan.Job 3:7-9 (in Context) Job 3 (Whole Chapter)Job 41:1"Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?Job 41:1-3 (in Context) Job 41 (Whole Chapter)Psalm 74:14It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert.Psalm 74:13-15 (in Context) Psalm 74 (Whole Chapter)Psalm 104:26There the ships go to and fro, and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.Psalm 104:25-27 (in Context) Psalm 104 (Whole Chapter)Isaiah 27:1[ Deliverance of Israel ] In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword, his fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.Isaiah 27:1-3 (in Context) Isaiah 27 (Whole Chapter)Job 40:15"Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.

[keith crime]

Christianity has a built-in defense system: anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument is, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief. It’s a very interesting defense mechanism and the only way to get by it, and believe me I was raised Southern Baptist, is to take massive amounts of mushrooms, sit in a field, and just go, "Show me." Its just a wierd belief system. Eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love... There's a great story going around the states right now. These fundamentalist Christians down South- yeah, like where else are they gonna be? 'These fundamentalist Christians in Brussels...'anyway, down south, they're trying to get creationism taught in schools as a science. Now, other than the obvious objection: IT'S NOT ONE, I think it would be a killer idea. It would definitely be the shortest class of the day. "In the beginning God created the heavans and the earth...see you at the final." You ever noticed how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? Ya ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet.3"I believe God created me in one day"Yeah, looks liked He rushed it.They believe the bible is the exact word of God - Then they change the bible! Pretty presumptuous, hu huh?"I think what God meant to say..."I have never been that confident.Next we have a bible out called 'The New Living Bible', it's the bible in updated and modern English. I guess to make it more palatable for people to read. But its really weird, when you listen to it."And Jesus walked on water. And Peter said, 'Awesome!'"Suddenly we got Jesus hanging ten across the Sea of Galilee. Christ's Bogus Adventure, you know. Deuteronomy 90210, you know.Such a weird belief. Lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he's gonna want to see a ****ing cross, man?"Oaww"May be why he hasn't shown up yet.

[crowTrobot]

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 8:49 AM, said:

Carbon dating giving indications to be faulty and inconsistent

that is a lie. there are multiple forms of carbon dating and they are corroborated by each other as well as by other dating methods. the exact precision of some specific forms of dating are open to question *on small time scales*, but on the coarse scale of millions of years dating methods as a whole have been proven to be extremely accurate by corroboration.

Quote

The 'fossilized' trees discovered through layers of rock that happened 10s of millions of years at a time (Bottom part of tree in 100million years ago, middle of tree 50 million and top of tree20 million years ago)...Virtually impossible for tree to remain standing and to fossilize within those different levels,

not if the trees were *already* fossilized. this is easily explained by what is going on in NE yellowstone right now - there is a whole forest of *standing* trees fossilized because they were buried under soft volcanic ash for at least 600,000 years - but now left exposed because the elements have worn the soft ash away, with harder deposits that will eventually form strata (over millions of years) being layered from the ground up around them. the formation of strata isn't necessarily a simple procedure - layers are constantly being worn away and formed at the same time, with layers of more hardened material surviving much longer and forming the backbone of the landscape while softer layers (that although soft can still cause fossilization) disappear.

Quote

The other option is that a huge blanket/canopy of water was over the earth and created a huge flood. When that flood subsided, layers of sediment did too, with trees and other things settling into the mud/muck at one time, allowing for the possibility of fossilizing.

the global flood story is an obvious fable by any standard of intelligence, probably based loosely on an actual localized flooding event along the shores of the black sea in sumerian times.http://members.shaw....nism/flood.htmlhttp://home.entouch.net/dmd/gflood.htmhttp://www.talkorigi...q-noahs-ark.pdfhttp://baby.indstate...ag/northrup.htm

Quote

Also, if you extrapolate backwards on the land masses floating apart (as they appear to have at one time been connected), 100 million years would be too much time for the land masses to be where they are.

this is just stupid, because scientists use extrapolation to determine how long ago the land masses were connected in the first place. there's nothing there to refute, unless you want to say that the land masses are drifting so fast that they would circle the globe in a shorter time, which would be an outright lie (rate of drift is 1-2 inches/year which is 2-4 billion years to circle the earth).the connection of landmasses at the extrapolated time is also corroborated by evidence in the fossil record, supporting that the current rate of continental drift has been fairly consistent at least since gondwana broke up.

Quote

Same thing also applies to the slight change in rotation of our planet to the sun. 100million years (or billion of years) would place us in a rotation that was uninhabitable by the plants/animals/dinosaurs that roamed the earth.

flat out lie. obviously the earth was uninhabitable by land life *billions* of years ago, but there's no evidence it was at any point uninhabitable since higher land life emerged (500-600 millions years ago).

Quote

and..there are still dinosaurs on the earth anyway.

yes there are still the evolutionary protege of dinosaurs on earth, and they are called birds.maybe you should consider that the creationist literature you are getting this tripe from might be based on misinformation designed to INFLUENCE THE IGNORANT. in fact most of the above arguments are so badly outdated that most creationists don't even use them anymore. if you are really interested in confirming your belief (my guess is you aren't) you should extend your research beyond creationist literature.

[Entrepeneur]

maybe you should consider that the creationist literature you are getting this tripe from might be based on misinformation designed to INFLUENCE THE IGNORANT. in fact most of the above arguments are so badly outdated that most creationists don't even use them anymore. if you are really interested in confirming your belief (my guess is you aren't) you should extend your research beyond creationist literature.[/quote]Point me to unbiased literature..and I'll read..Sure.. No problem.What can I say..oops..It's been 15 years since I've been in school...At that point..the world was still flat....I'd love to see new information...Those "Christians" that I know don't mind questioning God or our religious beliefs. If we're afraid to question them (or admit when we've thought something to be true and it's not)...then we've got a problem.Just don't care to be around any Christians who has a problem with people questioing God or existence (or how the world was created). I don't think you should ever be afraid of someone honestly seeking an unbiased truth.1. Go ahead and send me links, and I'll read more, talk less, be less ignorant (no problem)2. Should have stated at the beginning of some of these posts that "I believe this.....or I think this...I don't know if it's true..but it's what I've though." Can't tell you the first 6 months of poker with my friends how many times I made comments that I believed to be true, that I see now as stupid. But...hey..I'm learning..and not afraid to hear from different people.I will say...I appreciate the moderately calm temperament of these discussions. That's nice.A Conversation with people trying to learn more...nice...Bible Thumping or Evolution Thumping or Creationg Thumping..no thanks.Thanks for the civil posts.Send any links to 'unbiased scientific facts' to me (That is not meant to be sw..I really do mean that)If you are really interested in confirming your belief (my guess is you aren't) you should extend your research beyond creationist literature.[/quote]Not sure what part of my posts implied that I would be stubborn or obstinate by the way.Life's too short to assume something is true, not bother trying to confirm it (or ignore comments against it)..and go on blindly.As I said, any person who believes in something strongly, should not be afraid to have it challenged.For poker, if you can explain to me why I shouldn't stick to my guns of playing 2/7suited on the button against the tightest mouse ever who's reraised a 3rd player..I'll consider looking at that information as well (they are suited though)..(As I've already come across slightly ignorant but willing to learn..."Previous poker comment....SW ")

[brvheart]

Mattnxtc, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 12:14 AM, said:

But have you sinned at all? have you ever lusted after a woman/man have you ever cussed? have you ever lied? have you ever taken the Lords name in vain? If you can answer yes to even one of those then you have sinned and are no longer righteous. So When you face God and he judges you on His standards...you fail. Do you see?

nothing in the Bible defines cussing as sinful, but the general jist of what youre saying I agree with. We are all sinners and deserve to die. Only belief in Jesus can save you from the punishment you deserve.

KowboyKoop, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 12:30 AM, said:

GOD DOESN'T THINK THE ISSUE OF DYING INFANTS BEING DAMNED TO HELL OR GOING TO HEAVEN IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO MENTION!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! WHAT!?!?!!?!??!?!??!

Kowboy, did you read anything I wrote? I already mentioned several verses that stated that God cares deeply about children.. My point to you was, it's not an issue to him, therefore, he has already taken care of it. If it was important he would say, "make sure you baptise all infants so they don't go to hell". But no where in the Bible does it ever mention infant baptism or anything else we can do to 'save' infants. Which means, God has it taken care of. Also in an earlier post of mine, I quoted verses that WERE EXPLICTLY TALKING ABOUT AN INFANT DEATH AND HOW THAT INFANT WAS NOW IN HEAVEN.

[crowTrobot]

Entrepeneur, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 10:30 AM, said:

Not sure what part of my posts implied that I would be stubborn or obstinate by the way.

sorry, that wasn't meant to be specifically about you. most christians that post here (including DN) haven't shown that they have or ever will have interest in objectively studying evidence that refutes literal creationism.in fact most informed modern christians that do study the evidence are incorporating things like a 4.5 billion year old earth, evolution, global flood as strictly a fable, etc as "part of god's plan" because they have no choice.just use a search engine (google etc) for any of those subjects and you'll get plenty of links from both sides to compare.

[Entrepeneur]

Crow..I've gone back and edited my post, and I think you'll find it 100% completely impossible to disagree with...LOLUnrefuted facts in the post now... (POST #48 is the one I'm referring to)I'll google..thanks...

crowTrobot, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 10:49 AM, said:

sorry, that wasn't meant to be specifically about you. most christians that post here (including DN) haven't shown that they have or ever will have interest in objectively studying evidence that refutes literal creationism.in fact most informed modern christians that do study the evidence are incorporating things like a 4.5 billion year old earth, evolution, global flood as strictly a fable, etc as "part of god's plan" because they have no choice.just use a search engine (google etc) for any of those subjects and you'll get plenty of links from both sides to compare.

Intrigued by the ammonites discussion, by the way in a couple of the articles...Kind of cool.