14 replies to this topic

[anthony c]

Hello, I'm having some problems learning Daniel's small-ball strategy. I went out and bought his book(Power Holdem Strategy) and it seems I'm doing something wrong. 1st- when it comes to being the first one to enter the pot, does it matter what I have. 2nd- when in position with some limpers in front do I play whatever I have on the button or just keep raising when I'm the first one in? There are a great number of hands he says to play when i'm the first in... Example- hands like J 10 suited or KQ suited etc. Please if someone or all of you please comment on this so my understanding will be better than now. Forum member Anthony c.

[kreppsen]

I guess this is online?The fact that most online tournaments have a pretty fast structure (blinds every 5/10 min) this will force you to adapt to a more aggresive style of play making the small ball a little...useless? unless you're in the very start of on of these normal tournaments or playing the deep stacked tournaments. Smallball was a strategy developed playing live poker, and it works, playing live. However, I don't think the "regular net player" should try to make this kind of play unless you're a very good poker player. Smallball forces the opponent to make a lot of decisions, but you have to take a lot of decisions yourself. I don't know if you're a rookie or a experienced net player, but smallball will take time to learn... and way more time to master. So unless you're goal is going deepstack in WCOOP events or playing big live tournaments I'd say you should try to get a grip around some other, more simple strats first.Also, a very important factor that online lacks is the ante levels compared to the stacks. Let me try to give an example:Online:Blinds 500/1000 100 ante = 500+1000+9*100=pot 2400Let's say it's folded to you in MP2-CO. The avg stack is 12-15k, you're right in the avg. You bet 2850 which is normal in smallball, about 2,5-3BB. (Just by betting 3BB does not say you're playing smallball as some players think) -This bet represents 20-25% of your total stack. You play a marginal hand (Like that J10 you mentioned) and is playing and hoping to get the other players to fold just to ship in the dead money. If someone should raise(most likely shove) you're forced to take a very hard decision and you have no personal tells on this person, other than your note saying "might be aggresive PF, no showdowns". When the blinds and antes represent such a major percent of the tables avg. people will defend it more. Fold/shove will work way better in tourney situations like these.Live:Blinds 500/1000 100 ante = 500+1000+9*100=pot 2400Exactly same situation, but avg stack is about 2 times more, you got 28K. Same bet but this barely represents 10% of your stack and most likely table is a little more tight. Somebody raise you, but you can take a decision based on his personal tells and his behaviour on the table, steamy, calm... Should this be Patrik Antonius sitting over you, not giving away any tells, you can fold without feeling bad about yourself folding to a pot that had 25% of your chips in it.These are only examples of two tourney scenarios and does not have to be the case in all tourneys you play. Just some of my thoughts. Smallball forces the opponent to make a lot of decisions, but you have to take a lot of decisions yourself. You play a marginal hand. If someone should raise(most likely shove) Marginal situations are easier to make in live as you can rely a little on personal tells :)EDIT: As for your questions regarding the entering pot. When being the first to enter a pot, it does matter what your cards are and if you're out of position I don't like playing more than monsters unless it's to polarize my range. As for entering a pot that already got a few limpers I'd say it's very situational, but most of the time a small bet should get atleast a few of them off the pot and if they all limp to your small bet it's most likely a check/fold situation regarding how you hit the flop. Should you only have 1 limper push him a little on the flop (you got position) go out and bet abour 50% of the pot and ship it.

[anthony c]

kreppsen, on Wednesday, November 25th, 2009, 4:26 AM, said:

I guess this is online?The fact that most online tournaments have a pretty fast structure (blinds every 5/10 min) this will force you to adapt to a more aggresive style of play making the small ball a little...useless? unless you're in the very start of on of these normal tournaments or playing the deep stacked tournaments. Smallball was a strategy developed playing live poker, and it works, playing live. However, I don't think the "regular net player" should try to make this kind of play unless you're a very good poker player. Smallball forces the opponent to make a lot of decisions, but you have to take a lot of decisions yourself. I don't know if you're a rookie or a experienced net player, but smallball will take time to learn... and way more time to master. So unless you're goal is going deepstack in WCOOP events or playing big live tournaments I'd say you should try to get a grip around some other, more simple strats first.Also, a very important factor that online lacks is the ante levels compared to the stacks. Let me try to give an example:Online:Blinds 500/1000 100 ante = 500+1000+9*100=pot 2400Let's say it's folded to you in MP2-CO. The avg stack is 12-15k, you're right in the avg. You bet 2850 which is normal in smallball, about 2,5-3BB. (Just by betting 3BB does not say you're playing smallball as some players think) -This bet represents 20-25% of your total stack. You play a marginal hand (Like that J10 you mentioned) and is playing and hoping to get the other players to fold just to ship in the dead money. If someone should raise(most likely shove) you're forced to take a very hard decision and you have no personal tells on this person, other than your note saying "might be aggresive PF, no showdowns". When the blinds and antes represent such a major percent of the tables avg. people will defend it more. Fold/shove will work way better in tourney situations like these.Thankyou for that it means a lot to me. I was reading his book last night. Now correct me if I'm wrong but in the book he says(Daniel) that the suited connectors are Ideal for the small-ball approach. So should I still open with connectors or just wait until i'm in late position or on the button when its folded around to me? If possible and you have the time you can email me at pokernut1974@yahoo.com. The reason why is because you are a knowledgable person and I know I can learn a thing or two from you. Thanks again Forum member Anthony CLive:Blinds 500/1000 100 ante = 500+1000+9*100=pot 2400Exactly same situation, but avg stack is about 2 times more, you got 28K. Same bet but this barely represents 10% of your stack and most likely table is a little more tight. Somebody raise you, but you can take a decision based on his personal tells and his behaviour on the table, steamy, calm... Should this be Patrik Antonius sitting over you, not giving away any tells, you can fold without feeling bad about yourself folding to a pot that had 25% of your chips in it.These are only examples of two tourney scenarios and does not have to be the case in all tourneys you play. Just some of my thoughts. Smallball forces the opponent to make a lot of decisions, but you have to take a lot of decisions yourself. You play a marginal hand. If someone should raise(most likely shove) Marginal situations are easier to make in live as you can rely a little on personal tells :)EDIT: As for your questions regarding the entering pot. When being the first to enter a pot, it does matter what your cards are and if you're out of position I don't like playing more than monsters unless it's to polarize my range. As for entering a pot that already got a few limpers I'd say it's very situational, but most of the time a small bet should get atleast a few of them off the pot and if they all limp to your small bet it's most likely a check/fold situation regarding how you hit the flop. Should you only have 1 limper push him a little on the flop (you got position) go out and bet abour 50% of the pot and ship it.

[Biff Goods]

I would learn the Evelyn Ng chapter of his book first before you tackle the small ball strat...

[Royal_Tour]

anthony c, on Tuesday, November 24th, 2009, 7:18 PM, said:

Hello, I'm having some problems learning Daniel's small-ball strategy. I went out and bought his book(Power Holdem Strategy) and it seems I'm doing something wrong. 1st- when it comes to being the first one to enter the pot, does it matter what I have. 2nd- when in position with some limpers in front do I play whatever I have on the button or just keep raising when I'm the first one in? There are a great number of hands he says to play when i'm the first in... Example- hands like J 10 suited or KQ suited etc. Please if someone or all of you please comment on this so my understanding will be better than now. Forum member Anthony c.

Have you read harrington on holdem?If I could suggest anything, it would be. Take a month and 25 dollars and buy harrington on holdem volume 2. .HOH contains three Volumes. volume 1 is very basic, and if you have enough understanding of tournament play, you can skip it.volume 2 is a MUST. a great read, easy to follow.

[anthony c]

Royal_Tour, on Thursday, November 26th, 2009, 7:30 AM, said:

Have you read harrington on holdem?If I could suggest anything, it would be. Take a month and 25 dollars and buy harrington on holdem volume 2. .HOH contains three Volumes. volume 1 is very basic, and if you have enough understanding of tournament play, you can skip it.volume 2 is a MUST. a great read, easy to follow.

Thanks. But yes I do have HOH and Daniel's book. Harrington's book is a tight strategy and Daniel's atrategy is loose. I like them both. The thing is that with my personality I like to be in pots but my problem is I've been playing some suited connectors and etc. When I know I should be playing all hands in position.

[anthony c]

Biff Goods, on Wednesday, November 25th, 2009, 9:27 PM, said:

I would learn the Evelyn Ng chapter of his book first before you tackle the small ball strat...

Thankyou also. I've read Evelyn's chapter also. The thing with her's is the amount you have to bet. The Big Bets seem to get me into trouble. Example- I'm first in with AK suited or unsuited and raise 5x's the BB and get 4 callers. Well I'm supposed to bet the pot even if I miss. Me betting the pot like that and 1 opponent hit the flop I've lost to much of my stack. The other thing is the limpers thing. Example- I'm in mid late position and got 3 limpers, now my raise is 9x's the bb. Sorry I have AAs. I get called still by at least 2 players. Flop-2s-4s 9d. I bet pot 1 player calls. Turn 7h I bet pot again player calls. river 6s I'm all in player calls. Showdown- I have AAs player shows 75s he wins I'm out.

[Biff Goods]

anthony c, on Thursday, November 26th, 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

Thankyou also. I've read Evelyn's chapter also. The thing with her's is the amount you have to bet. The Big Bets seem to get me into trouble. Example- I'm first in with AK suited or unsuited and raise 5x's the BB and get 4 callers. Well I'm supposed to bet the pot even if I miss. Me betting the pot like that and 1 opponent hit the flop I've lost to much of my stack. The other thing is the limpers thing. Example- I'm in mid late position and got 3 limpers, now my raise is 9x's the bb. Sorry I have AAs. I get called still by at least 2 players. Flop-2s-4s 9d. I bet pot 1 player calls. Turn 7h I bet pot again player calls. river 6s I'm all in player calls. Showdown- I have AAs player shows 75s he wins I'm out.

Look man I hate to tell you this but you are just running into a little thing called variance. The reason why I suggested Ng's chapter is because it deals with PF play more than Post flop play. Until you get better at post flop play you are not gonna be able to pull the "small ball" theory off. Also small ball approach just isn't optimal against certain tables full of certain tables. I would say that if you are popping it to 9x with AA and getting 4 callers (one of them presumably with 75s) then you should be absolutely raising more pf. You may have lost the hand that time but you are gonna win more than you lose there because calling with 75s for 9x is a "mistake."

[anthony c]

Biff Goods, on Thursday, November 26th, 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

Look man I hate to tell you this but you are just running into a little thing called variance. The reason why I suggested Ng's chapter is because it deals with PF play more than Post flop play. Until you get better at post flop play you are not gonna be able to pull the "small ball" theory off. Also small ball approach just isn't optimal against certain tables full of certain tables. I would say that if you are popping it to 9x with AA and getting 4 callers (one of them presumably with 75s) then you should be absolutely raising more pf. You may have lost the hand that time but you are gonna win more than you lose there because calling with 75s for 9x is a "mistake."

You are so very right. So many people now are doing this alot. It makes it very hard to play premium hands when people keep calling big raises with suited connectors. I listen and start reading NG's chapter again and played in a 45 man sit-n-go. Believe it or not I had AAS did what I thought was the right play and raised 5x's the bb. I got called by 6 people floped an A bet the pot had 3 callers left. I lost on the river guy called with J 10 . You know what happend he hit his straight. I've also played and had KKs first one in made my 5x open raise the whole table went all in I folded all I say is suited this and that and I would have lost If I had stayed in. One more thing online that happends a lot is on pokerstars people get anything suited they will go all in pre-flop. Oh and people call big raises with junk like K4 off and hit to pair. I know how to play but with so many bad players calling with junk like that makes it hard for me to get better.

[DCJ001]

anthony c, on Tuesday, November 24th, 2009, 9:18 PM, said:

Hello, I'm having some problems learning Daniel's small-ball strategy. I went out and bought his book(Power Holdem Strategy) and it seems I'm doing something wrong. 1st- when it comes to being the first one to enter the pot, does it matter what I have. 2nd- when in position with some limpers in front do I play whatever I have on the button or just keep raising when I'm the first one in? There are a great number of hands he says to play when i'm the first in... Example- hands like J 10 suited or KQ suited etc. Please if someone or all of you please comment on this so my understanding will be better than now. Forum member Anthony c.

I doubt that Daniel advocates raising to 5x BB from early position with any hand. 2 or 2.5 BB would be good. If you have AK in early position with five callers and you miss, it's a good idea to check/fold because, with five callers, someone hit the flop well enough to not fold.Much of the advice that others have given here is not in accordance with what you're trying to learn from Daniel. I recommend reading the book, and doing your best to remember everything and play by what you have read.

[Biff Goods]

DCJ001, on Thursday, November 26th, 2009, 8:16 PM, said:

I doubt that Daniel advocates raising to 5x BB from early position with any hand. 2 or 2.5 BB would be good. If you have AK in early position with five callers and you miss, it's a good idea to check/fold because, with five callers, someone hit the flop well enough to not fold.Much of the advice that others have given here is not in accordance with what you're trying to learn from Daniel. I recommend reading the book, and doing your best to remember everything and play by what you have read.

We aren't talking about daniels small ball strat. Re-read the posts. We are discussing how Evenyn Ng's Long ball chapter would be better suited for him considering his post flop ability. OP...what limits are you playing?

[DCJ001]

Biff Goods, on Thursday, November 26th, 2009, 10:23 PM, said:

We aren't talking about daniels small ball strat. Re-read the posts. We are discussing how Evenyn Ng's Long ball chapter would be better suited for him considering his post flop ability.

anthony c, on Tuesday, November 24th, 2009, 9:18 PM, said:

Hello, I'm having some problems learning Daniel's small-ball strategy.

[Danege]

anthony c, on Friday, November 27th, 2009, 11:50 AM, said:

You are so very right. So many people now are doing this alot. It makes it very hard to play premium hands when people keep calling big raises with suited connectors. I listen and start reading NG's chapter again and played in a 45 man sit-n-go. Believe it or not I had AAS did what I thought was the right play and raised 5x's the bb. I got called by 6 people floped an A bet the pot had 3 callers left. I lost on the river guy called with J 10 . You know what happend he hit his straight. I've also played and had KKs first one in made my 5x open raise the whole table went all in I folded all I say is suited this and that and I would have lost If I had stayed in. One more thing online that happends a lot is on pokerstars people get anything suited they will go all in pre-flop. Oh and people call big raises with junk like K4 off and hit to pair. I know how to play but with so many bad players calling with junk like that makes it hard for me to get better.

I doubt it. If you 'knew how to play' then you'd be able to exploit these peoples weaknesses and wouldn't be whinging about them going all in preflop with 'anything suited'.

[kreppsen]

Biff Goods, on Thursday, November 26th, 2009, 8:57 PM, said:

Look man I hate to tell you this but you are just running into a little thing called variance. The reason why I suggested Ng's chapter is because it deals with PF play more than Post flop play. Until you get better at post flop play you are not gonna be able to pull the "small ball" theory off. Also small ball approach just isn't optimal against certain tables full of certain tables. I would say that if you are popping it to 9x with AA and getting 4 callers (one of them presumably with 75s) then you should be absolutely raising more pf. You may have lost the hand that time but you are gonna win more than you lose there because calling with 75s for 9x is a "mistake."

Todays word: variance.

[Biff Goods]

Quote

Hello, I'm having some problems learning Daniel's small-ball strategy.

GoodI'm very happy that you were able to read the original post....However.....If you were smart enough to read all the other responses and how I suggested this.....

Quote

I would learn the Evelyn Ng chapter of his book first before you tackle the small ball strat...

You would then understand why we were having a conversation about Long Ball and whether or not it would be suited for his skill level...But you go ahead and keep reading the cover of books without actually looking inside and see how far in life that gets you.....