33 replies to this topic

[aasurfer]

Hello everybody. Hope you're having a nice day at work or wherever you're reading this from. I'd like some feedback on a hand that occurred at a 2/5 NL table at the Borgata. My table was a mix of 3 good players, myself, 2 weak players, and a very loose player (3 empty/absent). I had only been at the table for an hour or so, but felt comfortable with my assessment of my opposition. The table had been fairly tight, with a $30 pf raise usually taking the blinds and any limpers down without a fight. I had a few unlucky hands where I had shown down a strong second best hand, which dwindled my stack to about $200. I'll do my best to explain my observations of the opponents involved in the hand where i got burned...sb: tightbb: loose, very luck oriented playerutg: ME, shown several very good second best hands, hadn't raised a pot the entire session2nd: weak, calling station if he hit the board, always folded to a pf raise during my time at the table5th: weak, raises in position constantly, just doubled up from $200 to $400 the previous handbutton: solid player, called player 5's raises several times and took the pot on the flop or turnso the action is as follows...utg: me, i limp with 67H 2nd: limps5th: raises to $30button: callssb: foldsbb: callsthat makes $99 in the pot as the action comes back to me... i move all in for $200 2nd calls5th callsbutton foldsbb callsWHAT?!?! that was unexpected to say the least. My evaluation of their hands was spot on... i just don't understand why they behaved as they did. 2nd: As5s5th: AdQsbb: 9d10sthe board comes down Ah9h9s 2s 10d and the BB wins with a full house.Again, i really thought what i was doing had an extremely good chance of increasing my stack by 50% with next to no risk but the entire table seemed to go crazy! Caro's "loose wiring" theory states that players don't know what they will do with their hands the majority of the time because there are not that many hands that are truly strong or truly weak. He says they act on a whim when the action comes to them. Any comments would be appreciated... was my thought process off in some way? or did i just run into a table gone crazy and some really bad luck?thanks,phil

[BoBetter]

you're not playing a tournament. Doing shit like that in cash games is a donkey play.

[mtdesmoines]

aasurfer, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 11:49 AM, said:

phil

Yeah. That's not far off. What happened here was that you made the pot big on an excrutiatingly slow table and it drew action from marginal hands. It happens. The good news is that you can rebuy and stimulate action again, only now at the flop and with decent holdings.

[SpleenLSD]

Blech. You're looking to pin this hand on the play of the rest of the table when you're a short stack limp-shoving UTG with a drawing hand. Bad play from early position and in a weird way be thankful you didn't hit to re-enforce your poor thinking in this hand. SHort-handed, suited connectors are for a cheap price in late position.

[mtdesmoines]

SpleenLSD, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 12:10 PM, said:

Blech. You're looking to pin this hand on the play of the rest of the table when you're a short stack limp-shoving UTG with a drawing hand. Bad play from early position and in a weird way be thankful you didn't hit to re-enforce your poor thinking in this hand. SHORT-STACKED, suited connectors are for a cheap price in late position.

FYP

[aasurfer]

sorry but i disagree with you guys big time. my cards aren't the point and i said that to begin with. are you trying to tell me that on a table like that i should expect to be called for $170 limp reraise all in by A5s, AQo, and 910o? i knew what i was up against and made a play i'm surprised didn't work. consider the situation not the outcome... hopefully somebody out there can play beyond their cards and can give me a better opinion here. i'd like to know if anybody has had a similar situation in which players go haywire for no apparent reason. to me calling with anything less than KK is absurd.

[linkwood]

aasurfer, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 1:24 PM, said:

sorry but i disagree with you guys big time. my cards aren't the point and i said that to begin with. are you trying to tell me that on a table like that i should expect to be called for $170 limp reraise all in by A5s, AQo, and 910o? i knew what i was up against and made a play i'm surprised didn't work. consider the situation not the outcome... hopefully somebody out there can play beyond their cards and can give me a better opinion here. i'd like to know if anybody has had a similar situation in which players go haywire for no apparent reason. to me calling with anything less than KK is absurd.

If you think its a good play why post it?

[Acid_Knight]

aasurfer, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 1:24 PM, said:

sorry but i disagree with you guys big time. my cards aren't the point and i said that to begin with. are you trying to tell me that on a table like that i should expect to be called for $170 limp reraise all in by A5s, AQo, and 910o? i knew what i was up against and made a play i'm surprised didn't work. consider the situation not the outcome... hopefully somebody out there can play beyond their cards and can give me a better opinion here. i'd like to know if anybody has had a similar situation in which players go haywire for no apparent reason. to me calling with anything less than KK is absurd.

You post here to get other opinions and assessments on your play. The general consensus is that this is a bad play. I agree with them. First of all, you're telling us about the players, but we need to know about hand ranges here. What is the range for player 1s opening raise? Does it matter to him that you limped UTG? What are the other players likely calling with?You should not play shortstacked at the table. If you are going to play shortstacked, you should not be playing cards like suited connectors UTG because you will not get the right implied odds.Also, since you're short, people will view you as desperate and will likely call with a wider range. Yeah the range that called you here is pretty comical, but how do you know none of them had AA, or TT or AK or anything? I think you just saw some money in the pot and shoved in becuase you felt there was a decent chance it might work, but you need to have specific reads on people's hand ranges when you make a move like this to ensure that it works.

[simo_8ball]

aasurfer, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 9:24 PM, said:

to me calling with anything less than KK is absurd.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAEDIT: Alternatively, read what Acid said above.

[mtdesmoines]

aasurfer, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 12:24 PM, said:

to me SHOVING INTO 3 PLAYERS WHO ARE IN A RAISED POT PF with anything less than KK is absurd.

FYP

[aasurfer]

linkwood, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 3:27 PM, said:

If you think its a good play why post it?

i was looking for anybody out there with a similar scenario... opponents behaving in a way they hadn't for over an hour without explanation. despite the math not being there and the assumption that even the simplest of minds should be putting me on a monster based on my image and previous action. the other 2 decent players at the table were as shocked as i was at the action that developed and they couldn't offer an explanation. i only know the comments when the cards were revealed from the rest of the table were "i thought you had aces" and "i can't believe they called you with those hands". even though the play failed to win the pot immediately, i was still going to win the pot against those holdings my fair share of the time, 25%. i understand why some may disagree with my play, its a personal preference... but based on the situation i think it was well thought out and i don't think anybody can deny that its a +EV play. i just wish i had read the forum guidelines (it's been a while since i've posted) beforehand and didn't list my hand or theirs... i think the responses would have been much different if i had written i held AA

[Zach6668]

lol don't bluff calling station morons at live 2/5.

[simo_8ball]

aasurfer, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 9:41 PM, said:

i don't think anybody can deny that its a +EV play.

I don't think it's a +EV play.

[Acid_Knight]

simo_8ball, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 1:47 PM, said:

I don't think it's a +EV play.

You're risking $195 to win $99 and when you're called, most of the time it's by a bigger pair and you're gonna be a 4-1 dog. This is NOT +EV.

[Zach6668]

lol

[Naismith]

While I don't mind terribly representing a bigger hand than you have while trying to pick up a lot of dead money, you can't be arguing that your play is correct in this situation because you clearly misread your opponents' ability to fold marginal hands.Making this play is entirely read-based, so it's going to be hard for anyone on here to say it was a good play or not in a vacuum. However, seeing that you were called by A5 and T9, it was obviously not a good play.

[aasurfer]

Acid,you do write excellent posts, i enjoy reading them. thanks for the most constructive one so far. you are correct that i should have bought in again. as i said in my first post, the original raiser raises in late position with a wide variety and usually conceded to the player to his left who called him frequently in position when he missed the flop. because of that i was not overly worried about the original raiser, or the caller on the button because he was a good player and likely would have reraised to isolate if he held a monster. the big blind was extremely loose and would call a standard pf raise with just about anything (j7o, 910o, A2, etc). the player to my left limp folded every time there was a pf raise so he also was not on my radar as a threat. based on the fact that the original raiser's low standards and the action that followed it, i know if the original raiser doesn't have a monster nobody does. also i represented a monster by making a play a shorter than average stack would commonly make with AA. i would expect the good player on the button to fold a decent hand like 8s-js or AQ in the face of my apparent strength. when the cards were revealed i found out my read for each opponent was spot on.

[No_Neck]

Naismith, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 4:52 PM, said:

While I don't mind terribly representing a bigger hand than you have while trying to pick up a lot of dead money, you can't be arguing that your play is correct in this situation because you clearly misread your opponents' ability to fold marginal hands.Making this play is entirely read-based, so it's going to be hard for anyone on here to say it was a good play or not in a vacuum. However, seeing that you were called by A5 and T9, it was obviously not a good play.

NO YOU HAVE A LOOSE WIRE!!!

[Acid_Knight]

aasurfer, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 1:41 PM, said:

i just wish i had read the forum guidelines (it's been a while since i've posted) beforehand and didn't list my hand or theirs... i think the responses would have been much different if i had written i held AA

You can list your hand, just don't list the results (including the villain's hand(s))Just becuase the people who live in this forum are gonna fold A5s and T9 doesn't mean that the morons at your table will. The expression "pearls before swine" comes to mind. Don't do fancy stuff for people who just don't care and then get angry/upset when they call with garbage.

[Acid_Knight]

aasurfer, on Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 1:53 PM, said:

i would expect the good player on the button to fold a decent hand like 8s-js or AQ in the face of my apparent strength. when the cards were revealed i found out my read for each opponent was spot on.

I fancy myself a decent player (insert laugher from forum regulars) and I'd probably call you fairly quickly with a hand like JJ or AK and I might even call with AQ (probably not) depending on how I felt at the table. Your raise is large and it discourages action. This isn't a tournament situation where it benefits you to take down the blinds to increase your stack. I feel that if you really had a hand like AA/KK you'd raise half of your stack and shove any flop. I'd weight your range much more heavily towards hands like 88-QQ and AK and therefore I think I'd be in good shape calling with high middle pairs like JJ and TT and stuff.The fact is that this is a terrible play for the reasons that Naismith stated.