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Is This Standard? Basic Hand, 2-5


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#61 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:11 PM

so you guys are all in aggreance its a check/call turn. check/fold river??thats your optimal lines?I just want to be 100% clear since you're saying to ignore everything i've said and Only listen to your advice,



#62 Zach6668

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:13 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 5:11 PM, said:

so you guys are all in aggreance its a check/call turn. check/fold river??thats your optimal lines?I just want to be 100% clear since you're saying to ignore everything i've said and Only listen to your advice,
I literally have not looked at the hand in question.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#63 Naismith

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:13 PM

View PostSnamuh, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 5:09 PM, said:

I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread, and generally tend to disagree with most of what RT says, but your bolded is slightly incorrect. If there was a way to be 100% sure that we were ahead on the turn (and be able to narrow villain's hand to AK/AQ), then raising would be the correct play. Unfortunately, there's really no way that we can be 100% sure and in practice, check raising this turn becomes very, very bad.
I did say somewhere that if there was some dynamic involved that we could get the villain to call off with worse, raising isn't horrible. To your point, though, you're saying that if we know he has AK/AQ 100%, raising is correct. I'd counter that that would depend on what he thinks he does on the river with A-high or if we think we can get value out of A-high on the turn.Still, though, I think that's a tangent discussion that distracts from this specific hand where we can narrow down the villain's range but don't know it exactly.
Peace,
Jay



#64 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:14 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 3:09 PM, said:

Posted ImageTry again.
lol. nice. i'm actually happy you're doing well. We both know we can never agree on anything in strat. Hell, even if you thought i had some validity, you would never admit it, so i dont mind that you've chosen to poo poo my posts without actually giving any real advice.



#65 NoSup4U

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:15 PM

IMO:Probably fold preflop, I don't want to go back and check the OP to see what our stack size is. But it's close to the 10X rule and we're oop.Check/call flop.Check/fold turn if he bets again.If flop goes check/check, lead the turn. Fold if raised (more player dependent but generally right)If called on the turn, c/fold the river if he bets.I would never ever c/raise the turn for the reasons people have already said. You're just getting money in bad for very little reason.

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 2:43 PM, said:

How have you been playing poker so long and you don't even know why you bet?There are 2 reasons. ONLY 2 reasons.1. You bet to get a worse hand to call2. You bet to get a better hand to foldEverything past that elaborates on one of those 2 categories.
I disagree with this a little and I think this is where RT is going. We also bet to protect our hands at times. For instance, when the flop checks through we can generally bet the turn to protect against his AK getting a free draw to 6 outs on the river. We don't however want to c/raise and bloat the pot in order to protect our hand. Protecting our hand is not worth creating a huge pot on the turn with one more card to come. Protecting our stack >>> protecting our hand. So the correct play if you want to protect your hand is to lead the turn. This both protects our hand and protects our stack.

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 3:05 PM, said:

The problem with this hand Is that MY advice was spot on from the start.and that zach sucks at NL, and matt always gets into marginal situations with small edges and is probably very swingy.righht?matt, your results stil very swingy?
RT, you are going to be SICK to your stomach if Matt posts his graph. It's the most consistent rocketship you've ever seen.Mark

#66 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:16 PM

View PostZach6668, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 3:13 PM, said:

I literally have not looked at the hand in question.
my point exactly



#67 Acid_Knight

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:17 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 2:14 PM, said:

lol. nice. i'm actually happy you're doing well. We both know we can never agree on anything in strat. Hell, even if you thought i had some validity, you would never admit it, so i dont mind that you've chosen to poo poo my posts without actually giving any real advice.
Wrong on that one too.

#68 El Guapo

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:17 PM

Quote

26 User(s) are reading this topic (7 Guests and 2 Anonymous Users)17 Members: Royal_Tour, droberts, HighwayStar, Snamuh, gobears, Naismith, Zach6668, Tehtoe, The Lobster, SwolyswoND, outsider13, Acid_Knight, king1305, NoSup4U, dreamcrusher28, Naked_Cowboy, rocketpoker828
LOL

#69 Naismith

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:18 PM

View PostNoSup4U, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 5:15 PM, said:

I disagree with this a little and I think this is where RT is going. We also bet to protect our hands at times. For instance, when the flop checks through we can generally bet the turn to protect against his AK getting a free draw to 6 outs on the river. We don't however want to c/raise and bloat the pot in order to protect our hand. Protecting our hand is not worth creating a huge pot on the turn with one more card to come. Protecting our stack >>> protecting our hand. So the correct play if you want to protect your hand is to lead the turn. This both protects our hand and protects our stack.
Mark, when we "bet to protect our hand," we're just betting to get a worse hand to call.
Peace,
Jay



#70 Tehtoe

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:19 PM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 4:17 PM, said:

LOL
no u

#71 SwolyswoND

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:20 PM

RT, I typically agree with your advice, but I do believe you are wrong in this thread. What the others have said is true. You bet to get worse to call or better to fold. THAT IS ALL. C/r this turn just wins you the same amount of money when you are ahead, and loses you more when you are behind. Plus as Naismith or someone else said, we cannot be 100% sure that we're currently ahead. I think 95% sure, but not completely. Live poker has too many morons who might try to slowplay KK/AA.
QUOTE (Ninja Ace @ Wednesday, March 24th, 2010, 2:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Flops are kind of like vagina's. The wetter they are, the harder you hit them.

#72 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:20 PM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 3:18 PM, said:

Mark, when we "bet to protect our hand," we're just betting to get a worse hand to call.
not always, you can be betting to win the hand then and there. outright.to avoid going to future streets and risk getting outdrawn.



#73 Zach6668

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:20 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 5:16 PM, said:

my point exactly
You're point is misguided. Our conversation has exactly nothing to do with the hand in question. I'm merely discussing basic no limit theory, pertaining to the game as a whole, not a specific hand.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#74 SwolyswoND

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:22 PM

Awwww man I'm like one of the three people Guapo didn't bold :club:
QUOTE (Ninja Ace @ Wednesday, March 24th, 2010, 2:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Flops are kind of like vagina's. The wetter they are, the harder you hit them.

#75 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:22 PM

View PostZach6668, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 3:20 PM, said:

You're point is misguided. Our conversation has exactly nothing to do with the hand in question. I'm merely discussing basic no limit theory, pertaining to the game as a whole, not a specific hand.
ask yourself.Have you ever assigned someone a range that you think you're ahead of, and then Bet.. and thought. "I hope he folds, but i'm ok if he calls"ever?



#76 Voldemort

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:23 PM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 5:17 PM, said:

LOL
HAHA

#77 king1305

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:26 PM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 5:17 PM, said:

LOL
Hi :club:

#78 Acid_Knight

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:27 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 2:20 PM, said:

not always, you can be betting to win the hand then and there. outright.to avoid going to future streets and risk getting outdrawn.
No. We are betting for value. If he chooses to correctly fold his draw when presented with the wrong odds, good for him. Our bet is not made to make him fold a hand he should fold.

#79 Zach6668

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:28 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 5:22 PM, said:

ask yourself.Have you ever assigned someone a range that you think you're ahead of, and then Bet.. and thought. "I hope he folds, but i'm ok if he calls"ever?
Even if I have, that doesn't mean I'm right in doing so.In this forum, I discuss poker theory. I don't play perfect poker, but in the forums, I have time to sit back and think about my responses without having to worry about my time bank, etc.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#80 NoSup4U

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:31 PM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 3:18 PM, said:

Mark, when we "bet to protect our hand," we're just betting to get a worse hand to call.
Semantics, but I disagree. We lead 99 on an 8542 board after the flop goes c/c because we believe the guy has AK. We are not looking for a call, we're just making sure he doesn't get a free pull at the river. We lead 99 on a 862 flop after we've raised pf because we want someone to call with worse (78 or something)I understand we think the same way, but I like having a 3rd bet for protection category because I think logically it makes more sense. (we aren't really betting in this situation to get AK to call. We don't expect a call.)Mark




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