Can't Sleep Over This...

[Marc-O 0]

Hey guys, long time since I posted.Yesterday I took a shot at the FT 750k. Got in through a satellite. Anyways, The first 2 hours were pretty uneventful, just kind of coasted my way through and tried to survive.Right when the money bubble broke I went on a sick run and ran my stack up to the top 20 in chips with about 500 people left.A little while later I get moved to the chip leaders table, and I told myself, "ok i dont want to get involved in to many pots here with him". Well that didnt happen.In the first case i had AA utg. I raise 3.5x ..... he calls....9 high flop.... he had 10 10.... and managed not to go broke to my AA even though a nice flop for the both of our hands.Regardless, this hand showed me this guy was actually a good player and did not get his stack by luck.So about 20 hands later the following comes up.....blinds 1000-2000my stack 95,000chip leader, 175 000short stack, 7 500OK So I pick up AK in the cut off.......short stack directly to my right.....it folds around to him, he shoves his 7500......Now my first thoguht was....ok do I simply call? or throw out a raise with the sb and bb still to act...........I decide to call.......sb folds......now to the big stack who barely hesitates before raising me to 30 000. ...........woah i think ok slow down....... I feel hes making a move on me here because I simply called the all in for a cheap price? Or does he really have a hand?..... I end up putting him on a weaker A then me.......so I re-pop all in........he insta calls and turns up JJ........no help on the board and gg me 373 place.So anwyays I hope i gave enough info here for some analysis. I really want to hear your opinions. My friend who was railing said I should have just threw it away to his re-raise... or simply called and threw it away if i missed the flop. But my thoughts were that he thought I was weak, and was making a move. And I really felt I had him and my hand was either dominating or could get him to lay down.This hand is eating me......This was my best shot at final tabling this thing, as i was top 10 in chips at this point. The big stack eventually went on to claim 3rd. I can only think if I avoided this hand how I would have done. It's actually killing me to think.

[Cappy37 0]

In the first case i had AA utg. I raise 3.5x ..... he calls....9 high flop.... he had 10 10.... and managed not to go broke to my AA even though a nice flop for the both of our hands.Regardless, this hand showed me this guy was actually a good player and did not get his stack by luck.

And we've identified him as a solid player

So about 20 hands later the following comes up.....blinds 1000-2000my stack 95,000chip leader, 175 000short stack, 7 500OK So I pick up AK in the cut off.......short stack directly to my right.....it folds around to him, he shoves his 7500......Now my first thoguht was....ok do I simply call? or throw out a raise with the sb and bb still to act...........I decide to call.......sb folds......now to the big stack who barely hesitates before raising me to 30 000. ...........woah i think ok slow down....... I feel hes making a move on me here because I simply called the all in for a cheap price?

You call the all-in to fold to a show of strength.. He showed strength. You know he's solid. Solid players bully small to middle stacks, not stacks that can halve their chips in one fell swoop. I'm going to go out on a limb and take a wild guess that you don't play a lot of satellites. Because sattys are where you learn how AK is no hand to risk your tournament on with an M of over 25.It takes strong to go all in. It takes stronger to call an all in. It takes even stronger to overcall an all in. And it's take great strength to over push an all in. We're talking great strength here.You can't call 1/3 of your stack to see the flop, and there aren't many hands he's tossing when he's getting 2.2-1 on his money on your shove.This is a definite fold considering your stack size and tournament standing. AK is far too often a coinflip hand, and we have no need to flip a coin here. You are still 400 players away from deciding the tournament. You are risking everything here pretty needlessly. I'm thinking QQ/KK/AA is our calling range here, i'd leave out AK. Solid players don't over-push with weak aces or strong kings. We aren't "beating" anything in his range at this point imo. We are a dog to any pocket pair and he's not doing this with a weaker ace or something assinine like KQ/KJ/KT/JT.Our best hope is actually to be up against another AK, and hoping his isn't suited. Once again: clear fold in my book.One more thing: you were asking yourself "Does he have a hand?" and "Does he think I'm calling weak?". You should have realized the two thoughts aren't mutually exclusive. Just the fact that you've shown "weakness" doesn't allow him to shove over you. This is rarely a bluff: he's not gaining free chips, he's only giving himself a chance to go heads up with the shover (albeit getting roughly 4-1). Getting 4-1 is certainly desireable, but he's pot-committing himself to risk 1/2 his stack. He really *can't* do that without a hand if he's even remotely solid. He can't expect you to lay down, especially in the 750.

[bigcoled 1]

What would your opponent be thinking, about you, about your hand, about how you've been playing so far? I don't have all that info...I have general info....Would you be limping with a shortish player all in, and giving players with mid stacks a ton of equity to get alot of action to play a small hand rather cheaply looking to hit a flop if you had him beat? What kind of hand is he putting you on? To me in this situation a limper is saying " I'M WEAK! Raise me out!" Would AA, KK, QQ (the hands that have him beat) be limping in this situation? NO, for the reasons stated above... These hands lose strength with the more hands that enter the pot... Hands like AK, AQ Gain power with multiple players... Same thing for hands below Jacks, looking hit sets and get payed off... He knew where you were at... Also, You can't break him...Chips = Power, this coupled with the money already in the pot compared to what he has to call with 30K already invest... Jacks can definatley call here...Not saying I would call everyone, but my guess is with his info from playing with you, he was calling YOU...Also....He folded 10,10 on the flop after you made a standard raise UTG with AA preflop.... No raise here... start of a trend he may have seen, that may have been more obvious to a player at the table??

[simo_8ball 0]

Reraise when the shortstack shoves. Pop it to about $20k and call a shove from anyone behind.As played, of the 3 options (fold, call or shove), shoving is the best move by a long shot. The bigstack can (and will) reraise there with a large range. In his eyes you can call the $7500 with A7+, KQ, 77+ or a range close to that, and he can isolate with hands as weak as 88 and AJ. Obviously if you fold that's bad because he can have plenty of worse hands, and if you flat call you're check/folding ~70% of flops, so that's bad too.

My friend who was railing said I should have just threw it away to his re-raise... or simply called and threw it away if i missed the flop.

Please don't listen to your friend. He is a misguided fool who cannot see past results.

[simo_8ball 0]

Shorty shoved for 3.5bb. We flat called from the CO. We can do that with a pretty damn big range, and if I'm the bigstack here I'm definitely isolating with 99+, AQ+, and maybe even with 77+, AT+. I would expect a big hand to be reraising there usually, so I would expect to see a mid ace or middling pair far more often than a high pair or AK.I guess it's going to be close, but I think you're folding the best hand too often for folding to be correct.

[HijackedAffairs 0]

You should have reraised the initial all-in in order to isolate, other than that there's nothing you can do. Never fold to his reraise, AQ is always in his range. Overall, well-played.

[Alina 0]

Ignore these posts, they are influenced by what happened and treating you as if you called his all-in. You did nothing wrong-it just didn't work out. He called your all-in with JJ as a coinflip, which was not a great play. Even if you had raised after the short-stack moved in, he would have raised you.

[simo_8ball 0]

He called your all-in with JJ as a coinflip, which was not a great play.

Wait, so you fold JJ in the big stack's position? Really?

[HijackedAffairs 0]

This advice is way too weak. The absolute tightest range we can put the BB is AQ+, 99+. We are ahead of his range but know will be facing a c-bet no matter the flop, so the way to play the hand is to push all-in. I guess you could fold and "find a better spot" but he really isn't that close to winning the thing and accumulating chips at this point is necessary to take a run at it. One of the biggest things about this strat forum is people think there's only one ending to a coin-flip, losing. If he wins this coinflip he's chip leader, and in a good position to go deep.

[Alina 0]

Wait, so you fold JJ in the big stack's position? Really?

yep.

[simo_8ball 0]

yep.

Really?

[Alina 0]

Really?

yep

[throwemaway 0]

yep

Whelp, then you suck

[donk4life 34]

Ignore these posts, they are influenced by what happened and treating you as if you called his all-in. You did nothing wrong-it just didn't work out. He called your all-in with JJ as a coinflip, which was not a great play. Even if you had raised after the short-stack moved in, he would have raised you.

The villain didn't know it was a coinflip, for all he knew the OP had 1010, 99, trying to isolate..You make that call everyday and twice on sundays..

[Alina 0]

Whelp, then you suck

Very cogent and persuasive. Well done.

[gobears 0]

I would have raised after the shortie went all-in to isolate since I don't want the blinds coming into the pot cheap but it plays out the same. The big stack would reraise with jacks there since that's what a big stack does and you'd call. I think that flat calling on the button is weak as your friend suggested as the flop will miss you 2/3 of the time and you would then fold to a CB from the big stack who could be holding a weaker ace or some other hand that also missed the flop? AK wants to see all five cards...You have to win your share of coin flips when you get deep in these things and you can't play scared. Once you smooth call and the big stack raises, your shove was the correct play despite the results.

[TravisG 0]

everybody's writing a novel here. do you want a 1on1 with the shorstack? if yes and you think you look like a solid player to the table, then isolate. if the big stack really is a solid player, he will fold his jj, knowing that its not worth to risk half his stack in this situation. if he STILL pushes after you, you can still fold.

[dingas 0]

I prefer re-raising the short-stack after the initial all-in.After you call and the BB re-raises, I don't like your all-in. With the the shortstack already all-in, the BB needs some values to be raising here, so you won't have a great deal of fold equity. I prefer calling the raise and hoping to hit a pair on the flop.

[Cappy37 0]

This advice is way too weak. The absolute tightest range we can put the BB is AQ+, 99+. We are ahead of his range but know will be facing a c-bet no matter the flop, so the way to play the hand is to push all-in. I guess you could fold and "find a better spot" but he really isn't that close to winning the thing and accumulating chips at this point is necessary to take a run at it. One of the biggest things about this strat forum is people think there's only one ending to a coin-flip, losing. If he wins this coinflip he's chip leader, and in a good position to go deep.

This advice is way too weak. The absolute tightest range we can put the BB is AQ+, 99+. We are ahead of his range but know will be facing a c-bet no matter the flop, so the way to play the hand is to push all-in. I guess you could fold and "find a better spot" but he really isn't that close to winning the thing and accumulating chips at this point is necessary to take a run at it. One of the biggest things about this strat forum is people think there's only one ending to a coin-flip, losing. If he wins this coinflip he's chip leader, and in a good position to go deep.

So with Copernicus gone the inmates are running the asylum now?Jesus H Xmas, Think of the equity here. This hand doesn't win the tournament. We don't get him to fold often enough for this to be correct. I'm sure if we shoved this 50 times we'd come out ahead profit-wise, but this is a single situation in a freezeout, and we're shoving 45 big blinds into the only guy in the table that has us covered hoping to flip a coin.Table dynamics are a huge part of this equation. This isn't the bully picking on the medium stack. This is the tourney chipleader firing into the only guy at the table that can seriously hurt him. If you think he's got AQ in his range, more power to you. This isn't the 3rd blind level. This is deep. He's coming over the top and pot-committing himself to let you know to get out. If you fold and he shows down J9, then hey, re-assess and catch him next time with the knowledge he's capable of pushing light. If no one is all-in here, then our range loosens considerably. But the fact that he knows he's showing down a hand tightens his range.I'm sorry, but I can't fathom shoving 45 big blinds into a solid player that's got us covered two-fold in chips (and shown great strength) is the winning play with AK here. We're getting called and you can count on one finger the hands we *want* to see (conceivably) flipped over.

[Cappy37 0]

You have to win your share of coin flips when you get deep in these things and you can't play scared. Once you smooth call and the big stack raises, your shove was the correct play despite the results.

I agree you have to win a lot of coinflips, but isn't this still pretty darn early/deepstacked to be forcing one, *as played* calling and getting overpushed?

[gobears 0]

I agree you have to win a lot of coinflips, but isn't this still pretty darn early/deepstacked to be forcing one, *as played* calling and getting overpushed?

We're past the money bubble and if we win this hand, we're the chip leader. My hand range for shoving is pretty tight here; QQ-AA/AK is my range. I'd lay down AQ/JJ and on down to his shove if we had reraised after the original shortie shoved.As played, I would think hard about widening our range to JJ/AQs with a shortie all-in and a call behind, we're inviting an aggressive player to reraise with a wider range and isolate against the shortie with our dead money in the pot.

[simo_8ball 0]

Cappy, I think you're missing that the allin and call is only for 3.5bb. That's small. Put yourself in the bigstack's seat, and analyse what range you would, could and should isolate with.

[Marc-O 0]

Great responses guys.... thanks for the comments.It's almost 20 hrs later and Im still sick to my stomach to think I know HAD this thing final tabled for once. I know if I keep studying in this forum I'll get my break soon.

[Marc-O 0]

I think if I analyized the situation a litte longer then what I had I would have ended up folding to the raise or just calling and folding on the flop. However I could not get out of my mind that if I could become the chip leader this hand and coast my way to the FT.

[sactownjoey 0]

I'm firmly in the Cappy camp on this one although a raise after the shorty shove would have given you a lot more information from which to work. If you raise and big stacks comes over the top you have to rely on your read and really, really tighten his range since he knows he is going to showdown and you like your hand enough to raise the (admittedly) shorty all in.The key is to have a plan for how you are going to play the hand knowing big stacks is still left to play. To me, calling leads to the worst options: facing a reraise or playing a multiway pot against the chip leader if he calls. If you are going to call there, I think you need to have a plan for how you are going to address both of those situations. You talked yourself into shoving all your chips in after your original plan, it seems, was to not get in the pot with big stacks.Ultimately, you got into a pissing contest with the only player at the table who could bust you. Even if you thought he *might* be pushing back light, you are likely (at best) coin flipping your tournament in a spot when you have absolutely no reason to.