festivus checkup. bb with 56o. no, really! (2/4)

[Sysvr4 0]

PokerRoom 2/4 Hold'em (0 handed) PreflopHero is BB with 5 6 UTG +1 raises, 6 folds, Button cold calls, SB calls, Hero callsAnyone not call there getting 7-1?Edit: UTG read, only 7 VPIP and 7 PFR after 40 hands. Make of that what you will.Jeff

[screech 0]

I fold here.I think the lowest offsuit connecting cards I call here with are 98.

[fckthis 0]

If you fold, you're being overly tight. You must assume your cards are first of all live, and at least they are connected. I call here, because you said the intial raiser is tight, which means you can trap him if you hit the board hard. I must mention though, calling too many raises from my BB is a leak in my game lol.

[iggymcfly 0]

I'd call here sometimes and fold sometimes depending on my mood. I doubt that either could be very wrong.Against an initial raiser who's that tight however, you pretty much know you're up against a big pair, so I think you have to fold in a limit game where your implied odds won't be able to make up for the equity that you're losing.

[iggymcfly 0]

Actually, I just checked your equity on the cardplayer odds calculator if you're up against something like KK, AQ, and T9s, and it's actually over 16%, so I guess you probably do want to call here. That's actually higher than I thought as with no flush possibility, I assumed you'd be around 10%.

[wrto4556 0]

I fold here.I think the lowest offsuit connecting cards I call here with are 98.

i would even fold 98!internet poker... :shakes head in dismay:

[hotbacon 0]

Actually, I just checked your equity on the cardplayer odds calculator if you're up against something like KK, AQ, and T9s, and it's actually over 16%, so I guess you probably do want to call here. That's actually higher than I thought as with no flush possibility, I assumed you'd be around 10%.

you can't say that just because he has over 7-1 equity means that he should call. whether to call or not depends on how much money he thinks the hand will make (or lose). in this case he will get outdrawn a lot and it will generally be very hard for him to bet his hand when he actually flops the best hand. also, he's oop, which further decreases his hands betability. this seems like an easy fold to me.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I dont like it.But i dont think that it's a huge deal either.I generally set the bar a bit higher, ideally 10/Joff and up. Realistically, i dip as low as 7/8 if the stars are perfectly alligned and my good-luck troll's hair is blowing counterclockwise.

[Actuary 3]

I fold.fast.

[Sysvr4 0]

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer

[Sysvr4 0]

in this case he will get outdrawn a lot and it will generally be very hard for him to bet his hand when he actually flops the best hand.

Why is that? I just click "Bet" and it bets Honestly, I don't get what you're saying here.

also, he's oop, which further decreases his hands betability. this seems like an easy fold to me.

My position relative to the raisor is one reason I called. If I flop a big hand, I can bet out and get it HU very easily here when he raises. I actually like my position in this hand.Jeff

[Actuary 3]

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer

Jeff.. you're gonig crazy.I'll agree with you that SSHE Blind play is tighter than necessary. I assume especially as you move up and the rake is not so bad making marginal plays more profitable.However, this is not so close, imo. The pfr is UTG..that means big hand. Would you call 1 Bet from the cutoff after 6 limpers with 56 off? I don't.thus this is worse.You will either flop enough to see the turn, and have to call 1 BB with the pot odds. Or fold the flop. You rarely win this hand.

[Actuary 3]

My position relative to the raisor is one reason I called. If I flop a big hand, I can bet out and get it HU very easily here when he raises. I actually like my position in this hand.Jeff

if you flop a big hand, why would you want to blow the field away?I would c/r.If you flop T52, I might lead out.If you flop 347, I'm c/r.

[Sysvr4 0]

Jeff.. you're gonig crazy.

I won't argue with that.

The pfr is UTG..that means big hand.

This is the part I'll argue. UTG has all the signs of a TAG to me, which means his raising hands UTG are:AK-AJ (and maybe ATs)KQ-KJ (and maybe KTs, but I won't count it)(maybe QJs, but I won't count it)AA-77 That's 48 pair combos and 168 (including ATs and excluding KTs and QJs) non-pair combos.I'm a 2:1 - 3:2 dog against any non-overpair. The field is laying me 7:1 closing the action. It's 3.5:1 against him having a pair. Even taking the 2:1 against suited overcards, this looks like a call.

Would you call 1 Bet from the cutoff after 6 limpers with 56 off? I don't. ... thus this is worse.

I'm not closing the action. HUGE difference with this many in the pot.As a side note, I seem to remember Daniel posting in a LHE strategy hand similar to this one where he said call... I can't find it though. Anyone remember that or can dig it up?Jeff

[Sysvr4 0]

if you flop a big hand, why would you want to blow the field away? I would c/r.

Agreed. Nut straight, I c/r for sure. Flop pair or two pair, I probably lead out.Jeff

[Actuary 3]

you'd have to be an exceptional post flop palyers.All that math wiil fail you when you have to put in 35+% of the money by the river, because you hit a 5 on the flop and need to see the river.I'm good post flop, for a new guyNot this good, though.One day I hope to never fold in the BB!

[screech 0]

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer

I fold because I read it somewhere. :-)I read a thread on 2+2 a while back that dealt with the kind of implied odds you need to call with different offsuit connectors. I can't remember exactly what it was, but something tells me you shouldn't call here, and it's not really that close. I wish I had more to give you than that. I'll try to dig up that thread.

[screech 0]

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer

I fold because I read it somewhere. :-)I read a thread on 2+2 a while back that dealt with the kind of implied odds you need to call with different offsuit connectors. I can't remember exactly what it was, but something tells me you shouldn't call here, and it's not really that close. I wish I had more to give you than that. I'll try to dig up that thread.

[hotbacon 0]

in this case he will get outdrawn a lot and it will generally be very hard for him to bet his hand when he actually flops the best hand.

Why is that? I just click "Bet" and it bets Honestly, I don't get what you're saying here.

also, he's oop, which further decreases his hands betability. this seems like an easy fold to me.

My position relative to the raisor is one reason I called. If I flop a big hand, I can bet out and get it HU very easily here when he raises. I actually like my position in this hand.Jeff

What I'm saying is the hand has almost no visibility. So many flops where you end up with the best hand you can't bet, eg 5 with overs etc. So you can't say that equity is better than 7-1 so he shoudl call (Like someone else said).

[Verdimme 0]

Im folding aswell. You simply have to beat too much players. Basically you have to flop a monster. One pair wont hold up, and even bottom 2 pair is vulnerable for redraws.

[No_Neck 0]

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer

I fold because I read it somewhere. :-)I read a thread on 2+2 a while back that dealt with the kind of implied odds you need to call with different offsuit connectors. I can't remember exactly what it was, but something tells me you shouldn't call here, and it's not really that close. I wish I had more to give you than that. I'll try to dig up that thread.

screech is a double posting newb I think it really depends on how good a read you have on the guy, do you know if he will bet out on the flop no matter what? Do you know what he will check raise with? will he check raise bluff. If you have a good read on him and can play well post flop the odds are good. Me when I play hands like this they turn into 2nd best and I lose money so I fold.

[Sysvr4 0]

I read a thread on 2+2 a while back that dealt with the kind of implied odds you need to call with different offsuit connectors.

That sounds like exactly the kind of analysis I'd like to see on this hand. I barely follow 2+2 anymore so I'd have no clue where to look. If you can find it I'd appreciate it...Jeff

[Sysvr4 0]

As a side note, I seem to remember Daniel posting in a LHE strategy hand similar to this one where he said call... I can't find it though. Anyone remember that or can dig it up?

Yeah, I'm quoting myself here... the narcissist in me demands it. :)I found the thread. Here tis:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...3903&highlight=Now, there are a couple of differences, so I'll go ahead and point them out:1) Hero is getting 9.5:1 and I'm getting only 7:12) Hero's hand is 45o and mine is 56o. Thus, I have better high card strength :)Here's a key quote from Daniel:

For one extra bet you should call in the big blind with 4-5. I don't really care if there is one, two, three, or twenty players in the pot!You can make a case for folding against an early position raise heads up, but generally when you are getting 3.5 to 1 on a call with 4-5 it's worth taking a look at the flop.

Someone please refute Daniel's argument with more than "Ed Miller says to", etc...Furthermore, a big followup question for all of you who say fold:What are the minimum odds with which you would call with this hand in the BB and why? Jeff

[screech 0]

Jeff,I don't really have time to go into much detail right now, but I think Daniel is wrong here. You have a hand that's much worse than average and makes a ton of second best hands. Yes, you are getting good odds pf, but your equity pf is pretty damn poor. Couple this with your poor position, and it seems like a pretty easy fold.

[mrdannyg 274]

Jeff,I don't really have time to go into much detail right now, but I think Daniel is wrong here. You have a hand that's much worse than average and makes a ton of second best hands. Yes, you are getting good odds pf, but your equity pf is pretty damn poor. Couple this with your poor position, and it seems like a pretty easy fold.

if you were posting in the CO, i may call this, but in position i fold as well. "because" were already posted very well i think.and i think DN is correct that you should call there, but only if you have the post flop "skillz" of someone like DN. given our hand's visibility (thanks to an earlier poster for that term) and the fact we are not professionals, i think we lay this down.