15 replies to this topic

[Victorvdb]

It's a live 5/10 euro NL game, 10 players. Villain in this hand seems somewhat loosepassive, but has shown some tricks already. Recently doubled up by check/call, check/call, betting his AA on AQQ3K board vs KQ. I have 1500E, he has me covered.I'm utg with A :icon_suit_club: A :icon_suit_spade: and raise to 35, villain calls on the button, rest folds.Flop (pot 85)Q :icon_suit_club: J :icon_suit_club: 8 :icon_suit_heart: I bet 85, he calls 85Turn (pot 255)8 :icon_suit_diamond: I bet 180, he calls 180River (pot 615)9 :icon_suit_club: Now what do I do? I'm expecting he will raise me if I bet, or will bet if I check, but I am not sure if he has me... KT could be possible, but then it seems like he somewhat overcalled on the turn, and if he has KT of clubs then I wouldve expected him to have raised me... Since I have the ace of clubs, he can't have had AK clubs or ATclubs or something odd like that, but I am really clueless as to what to do. Maybe QT...what would be your action here? Victor

[zipper]

Victorvdb, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 2:15 PM, said:

It's a live 5/10 euro NL game, 10 players. Villain in this hand seems somewhat loosepassive, but has shown some tricks already. Recently doubled up by check/call, check/call, betting his AA on AQQ3K board vs KQ. I have 1500E, he has me covered.I'm utg with A :icon_suit_club: A :icon_suit_spade: and raise to 35, villain calls on the button, rest folds.Flop (pot 85)Q :icon_suit_club: J :icon_suit_club: 8 :icon_suit_heart: I bet 85, he calls 85Turn (pot 255)8 :icon_suit_diamond: I bet 180, he calls 180River (pot 615)9 :icon_suit_club: Now what do I do? I'm expecting he will raise me if I bet, or will bet if I check, but I am not sure if he has me... KT could be possible, but then it seems like he somewhat overcalled on the turn, and if he has KT of clubs then I wouldve expected him to have raised me... Since I have the ace of clubs, he can't have had AK clubs or ATclubs or something odd like that, but I am really clueless as to what to do. Maybe QT...what would be your action here? Victor

I would lead out with between 300 and 400 and fold to a raise. A check is just begging for a bet and then what do you do? If you bet less than 300 you are also begigng for a rasie. If he beats you he beats you.

[SBriand]

Victorvdb, on Friday, March 10th, 2006, 2:15 PM, said:

It's a live 5/10 euro NL game, 10 players. Villain in this hand seems somewhat loosepassive, but has shown some tricks already. Recently doubled up by check/call, check/call, betting his AA on AQQ3K board vs KQ. I have 1500E, he has me covered.I'm utg with A :icon_suit_club: A :icon_suit_spade: and raise to 35, villain calls on the button, rest folds.Flop (pot 85)Q :icon_suit_club: J :icon_suit_club: 8 :icon_suit_heart: I bet 85, he calls 85Turn (pot 255)8 :icon_suit_diamond: I bet 180, he calls 180River (pot 615)9 :icon_suit_club: Now what do I do? I'm expecting he will raise me if I bet, or will bet if I check, but I am not sure if he has me... KT could be possible, but then it seems like he somewhat overcalled on the turn, and if he has KT of clubs then I wouldve expected him to have raised me... Since I have the ace of clubs, he can't have had AK clubs or ATclubs or something odd like that, but I am really clueless as to what to do. Maybe QT...what would be your action here? Victor

You gotta bet. If you check no matter what he has he will most likely bet out big since your check shows weakness. I would say bet 1/2 to 3/4 the pot and then fold to a raise.

[zipper]

One other point. The one time I played at the Aviation club in Paris, I learned very quickly to raise much more than to $35 with AA. The players there were calling with every draw possible and willing to bet big. As such, I would have made it $50-$60 to go with the AA and then overbet the flop. If he wants to pay big to draw, so be it. But of he calls my overbet, I get very cautious on that board.I had AA early on and after two limpers I made it $85 to go and both called (wow!). The flop was 7-q-k with 2 spades and they both checked to me. I was concerned about the QK and pushed $350 in and they both folded. After a few more hands it was clear that the bet was a must as they started calling and hitting draws any time the post flop bet was the pot or less. While a call of a pot sized bet would have been okay odds wise, I was happy taking their $170 plus the blinds and moving on to the next hand.

[GABMAD]

I'll have to disagree with the previous posters. They say you should bet almost a pot size bet and fold to a raise. Where's the value? You only get raised by a better hand. If you check on the other hand, a bluff might bet 1/2 the pot or 3/4, the original bet that the hero was going to bet. You have to check/call, and that way you can still get value. I don't put him on the 10 because he wouldn't of kept calling you with inside. I put him on Q J, but you'd have a higher 2 pair. Maybe K Q....Anyways, those hands would check to you, and the hand that bets is either the straight, but even more likely a bluff.

[Victorvdb]

Yeah at the time Iw as pretty clueless as what to do, and I see a point for all options, for checkfolding, for checkcalling and betfolding ... I really hated this decision.. :SAt least its not clear cut for you guys either haha

[iggymcfly]

The first part of the decision's real easy. Check. Your hand's extremely vulnerable right now, and you don't want to voluntarily add money to the pot. After checking, if your opponent bets, you're just going to have to try to get a read on him and then make a decision. I can't tell you a threshold to call or fold at because this is really more dependent on your read than the pot odds.Still though, every draw in creation came in, so I'd be a little cautious on the river. With no read at all, I'd probably have to fold to anything over half the pot, but playing live, you need to try to pick up something here. Whether it's a betting pattern, eye contact, the way he stacks his chips, or just his general demeanor, you'll have to get information from somewhere here.

[offset]

First, check the turn. The board is too dangerous, and his flop call should have warmed you that he has a good hand. Most compellingly, you are out of position, which absolutely sucks.On the turn, check call a half pot bet, fold to a pot sized bet. A loose passive player probably does not bet strong with QJ or top pair and probably not at all with a draw there.That makes the river a lot easier. Whether he checked behind you or bet on the turn he is only betting the river with a hand that beats yours so fold to any substantial bet. He might bet his QJ very weakly so you do want to call very small bets.

[caribstv]

offset, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 1:20 PM, said:

First, check the turn. The board is too dangerous, and his flop call should have warmed you that he has a good hand. Most compellingly, you are out of position, which absolutely sucks.On the turn, check call a half pot bet, fold to a pot sized bet. A loose passive player probably does not bet strong with QJ or top pair and probably not at all with a draw there.That makes the river a lot easier. Whether he checked behind you or bet on the turn he is only betting the river with a hand that beats yours so fold to any substantial bet. He might bet his QJ very weakly so you do want to call very small bets.

Check and Call.. too much money out there just to give up now.

[asandu]

Check - call.

[DonkSlayer]

I like checking and making a read. If he really is loose-passive, he's he worth a big bet that you can't call on the river? Probably not. You beat AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10, etc here.....you don't beat A8 clubs or any other flush draw, or any other 8. The size of his bet shouldtip you off as to what he has. An 8 might just make him flip his cards over (you showed fear at the flush but not the 2nd 8), and a low-end flush may be a bit scurred about the boat or the higher flush so it won't be too expensive either. 3/4 of the pot bet from him, run. Any less or more, call.

[Victorvdb]

DonkSlayer, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 8:29 PM, said:

I like checking and making a read. If he really is loose-passive, he's he worth a big bet that you can't call on the river? Probably not. You beat AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10, etc here.....you don't beat A8 clubs or any other flush draw, or any other 8. The size of his bet shouldtip you off as to what he has. An 8 might just make him flip his cards over (you showed fear at the flush but not the 2nd 8), and a low-end flush may be a bit scurred about the boat or the higher flush so it won't be too expensive either. 3/4 of the pot bet from him, run. Any less or more, call.

My main issue with this hand is, i KNOW he can't have the nutflush as I have the ace of clubs. I did end up check/calling this hand, he bet out 300 and ended up having QJ, which I think he played very poorly all the way. Still my check/call on the river felt very weak, and the call felt like more of a crying call than anything else. Having the ace of clubs was actually what pushed the decision to a call, knowing he couldn't have ATc or A9c or something odd, and if he had a big flushdraw, he would've had a monster draw that I had expected him to play a bit more aggressive than he did now. My line also felt like it had aces / king written all over it.

[caribstv]

Victorvdb, on Tuesday, March 14th, 2006, 1:22 AM, said:

My main issue with this hand is, i KNOW he can't have the nutflush as I have the ace of clubs. I did end up check/calling this hand, he bet out 300 and ended up having QJ, which I think he played very poorly all the way. Still my check/call on the river felt very weak, and the call felt like more of a crying call than anything else. Having the ace of clubs was actually what pushed the decision to a call, knowing he couldn't have ATc or A9c or something odd, and if he had a big flushdraw, he would've had a monster draw that I had expected him to play a bit more aggressive than he did now. My line also felt like it had aces / king written all over it.

Yeah. it was weak and you had an idea you were beat but couldn't be sure.If you had bet out $150 he prob would have just called and not raised and saving you money.If you bet out 300 and he raised and you called, who knows how much you would have lost...

[iggymcfly]

Victorvdb, on Tuesday, March 14th, 2006, 2:22 AM, said:

My main issue with this hand is, i KNOW he can't have the nutflush as I have the ace of clubs. I did end up check/calling this hand, he bet out 300 and ended up having QJ, which I think he played very poorly all the way. Still my check/call on the river felt very weak, and the call felt like more of a crying call than anything else. Having the ace of clubs was actually what pushed the decision to a call, knowing he couldn't have ATc or A9c or something odd, and if he had a big flushdraw, he would've had a monster draw that I had expected him to play a bit more aggressive than he did now. My line also felt like it had aces / king written all over it.

I don't think it's weak at all. I think you played it just right. You knew you were vulnerable, so you checked and made a read. What would have been weak is making a small bet into the pot that says "if you have nothing, you can come over the top and make me fold, but if you have a big hand, you can still squeeze me for another $200 or $300 in addition to what I just put in the pot." When he only bets $300 on the river, you pretty much have to call bcause you've got pot odds, and it looks like it might be something weak like..........QJ.

[DrawingDeadInDM]

These are your options, in order of most effective to least.1. Betting ½-¾ of the pot/calling a raise is the best option.2. Check/call is weak, but, I think I probably want to show this down, so, it's okay.3. Check/folding to a bet is just slightly worse than okay. 4. Pushing all in is pretty bad. 5. Bet/fold is worse. 6. Check/raising/calling a reraise is slightly worse.7. Check/raising/folding is horrendous.8. Open folding is the only option slightly worse than the above.

[rbakken2504]

There are a couple things you can do here, depending on how confident you are at reading your opponent.If you are confident in your reads you can check and then go from there and make your decision, it is a very tough spot because it looks like everything he could've been calling you with has you beat. So a check here makes your decision even tougher, but will give you more information as to what he does and how he reacts.Or option 2, you can make a handcuff bet and try to get yourself a discount from check/calling. If you make a smallish type bet or somewhere around there, he more than likely will only raise you with a hand a full house, maybe a flush, but probably just a boat, and will probably call with a hand that beats you as well, but it will give you a discount , rather than checking to him, then he makes a larger bet, and you call. Either way this decision looks to be a tough one, personally it looks to me to much like a full house, agh, I am just glad I didnt have to deal with this spot.