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I am at the casino last night playing 1/2 NLHE as usual. I started with a $100 buyin and got to $150 and our table busted up. I get to my next table and I am card dead for the next hour and a half. I made a terrible hero call and got down to about 90 bucks. I start catching a few cards and work my way back to about $280. I'm on the button and look down at AA. I get 3 limpers and raise to 7 which is my standard play with a big pckt pr. Flop is 8c2dQs. Villain(who has been caught big betting a bluff on at least 4 occasions) bets 10. I raise to 30 and he calls. The turn is Qd. Villain bets 22. I call. River is 7c. Villain goes all in for 40. Hero??Second hand: AA in the cutoff. 2 limpers, I raise to 7. BB calls. 2 folds. BB is a weak passive player that calls way too often with weak hands and folds good draws(he has about $50 in front of him). Flop is 4cKcTd. BB checks, I bet $20. BB calls. Turn is Kd. BB pushes all in for $30. Hero??

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I am at the casino last night playing 1/2 NLHE as usual. I started with a $100 buyin and got to $150 and our table busted up. I get to my next table and I am card dead for the next hour and a half. I made a terrible hero call and got down to about 90 bucks. I start catching a few cards and work my way back to about $280. I'm on the button and look down at AA. I get 3 limpers and raise to 7 which is my standard play with a big pckt pr. Flop is 8c2dQs. Villain(who has been caught big betting a bluff on at least 4 occasions) bets 10. I raise to 30 and he calls. The turn is Qd. Villain bets 22. I call. River is 7c. Villain goes all in for 40. Hero??Second hand: AA in the cutoff. 2 limpers, I raise to 7. BB calls. 2 folds. BB is a weak passive player that calls way too often with weak hands and folds good draws(he has about $50 in front of him). Flop is 4cKcTd. BB checks, I bet $20. BB calls. Turn is Kd. BB pushes all in for $30. Hero??
Meh, I know you prob got tripped on both, but I think we call both for the price and make sure.
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Hand 1: You've got AA on the button with 3 limpers, raise it up big to like $15. It'll look like a steal and it also makes the hand way easier to play. The 1/2 Live games I've played are very loose preflop, so raising to $7 with three limpers does nothing.Hand 2: You just showed down aces (I assume you called), 2 limpers and you're still in late position, raise it up to $12-$15

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At what 1/2 game do you play where you make it 7 after 3 limpers and get the majority of them to fold?

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My thinking may be flawed but here it is. In these games, raising to 7 doesn't chase players out. It builds the pot and gets you in trouble. One of the weaknesses of my cash game has been not making enough money from my big hands. Usually because I over bet somewhere and push people out. Honestly, I'm not afraid to lose with big hands. I don't get mad when someone gets lucky against me playing cards that they shouldn't be. I have been at the table with the villain from the first hand on several occasions. He is an older man with a ton of money and he loves big pots. He makes very loose calls and then buys a lot of pots with big bets. He was the person that I wanted to keep in the pot. I didn't want to raise him out of the pot. I felt like I could push any callers out of the pot on the flop and make some money off of him. Especially with my position and my very tight table image. My main question in this hand is on bet sizing. At this point, I feel I got too greedy with the 30 dollar pot sweetening raise. But I am always reluctant to push in these situations. My plan was that if the board did not pair and I did get heads up with the villain, I was pushing the turn no matter what he did.On the second hand, it really didn't matter because he had very few chips. I wanted to play the hand to get them all.

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My thinking may be flawed but here it is. In these games, raising to 7 doesn't chase players out. It builds the pot and gets you in trouble. One of the weaknesses of my cash game has been not making enough money from my big hands. Usually because I over bet somewhere and push people out. Honestly, I'm not afraid to lose with big hands. I don't get mad when someone gets lucky against me playing cards that they shouldn't be. I have been at the table with the villain from the first hand on several occasions. He is an older man with a ton of money and he loves big pots. He makes very loose calls and then buys a lot of pots with big bets. He was the person that I wanted to keep in the pot. I didn't want to raise him out of the pot. I felt like I could push any callers out of the pot on the flop and make some money off of him. Especially with my position and my very tight table image. My main question in this hand is on bet sizing. At this point, I feel I got too greedy with the 30 dollar pot sweetening raise. But I am always reluctant to push in these situations. My plan was that if the board did not pair and I did get heads up with the villain, I was pushing the turn no matter what he did.On the second hand, it really didn't matter because he had very few chips. I wanted to play the hand to get them all.
If you make it like 15 after three limpers (or more), one of them will almost always call, and you only want one of them to call when you have rockets.
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Yes once you get a pot w/3+ people you begin having to take bet/fold lines w/AA instead of bet/call ones. Obviously that sucks, so you need to jack this up pf. That's the critical mistake in the hand IMO. Villain shouldn't have enough money left on the turn, never mind the river, for there to even be a remotely difficult decision (assuming we can get it in on the flop).

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My thinking may be flawed but here it is. In these games, raising to 7 doesn't chase players out. It builds the pot and gets you in trouble. One of the weaknesses of my cash game has been not making enough money from my big hands. Usually because I over bet somewhere and push people out. Honestly, I'm not afraid to lose with big hands. I don't get mad when someone gets lucky against me playing cards that they shouldn't be. I have been at the table with the villain from the first hand on several occasions. He is an older man with a ton of money and he loves big pots. He makes very loose calls and then buys a lot of pots with big bets. He was the person that I wanted to keep in the pot. I didn't want to raise him out of the pot. I felt like I could push any callers out of the pot on the flop and make some money off of him. Especially with my position and my very tight table image. My main question in this hand is on bet sizing. At this point, I feel I got too greedy with the 30 dollar pot sweetening raise. But I am always reluctant to push in these situations. My plan was that if the board did not pair and I did get heads up with the villain, I was pushing the turn no matter what he did.On the second hand, it really didn't matter because he had very few chips. I wanted to play the hand to get them all.
You win more with your big hands (especially AA) when you value bet hard. Raising to 7 builds the pot, but not in the way you want to... if you raise to 7 and all 3 limpers and the bb tag along, you have a nice pot of $35, but you're against 4 opponents. If you raise to $15 or more... and get one caller, you'll have a $37 pot (2 limpers who fold & blinds + $30) and a lot more equity!This is good! It's the right mindset, but you're leaving money on the table, and in others stacks by not trying to get full value. Of course you don't just want to open shove with Aces, but again, pot odds are giving the limpers a great price to see a flop when you raise to 7.
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Remember, Aces play best against one opponent and not 4
Incorrect. I don't understand why this is such a common misconception. If you raise with AA you want as many callers as possible (you might start losing equity after something like 10 callers but practically speaking that statement is correct).
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Against 1 player aces hold up something like 80% of the timeAgainst 3 players aces hold up like 50%I think this is about right?

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Incorrect. I don't understand why this is such a common misconception. If you raise with AA you want as many callers as possible (you might start losing equity after something like 10 callers but practically speaking that statement is correct).
This is bleh thinking imo. If you were all in preflop against like 8 other people and you had aces that would be great because you would win more often than anyone else and it would be +EV. If you're in a hand against 4 people postflop with stacks remaining, you're only asking to put yourself in a situation where you are basically guessing if your aces are still any good. It's almost impossible to put 3 opponents on believable ranges if two people limp at 1/2, you make it 7, the BB calls, and the two limpers call (unless you have ridiculous impossible reads). They literally can have anything, therefore you cannot rule any particular hand out and are in a guessing game. If the flop comes J :club: 8 :ts 6 :4h , you can't rule any two pairs out, any sets out, any big draws out, anything. You're just basically going to bet and pray that every single person missed.Seeing the flop with aces multiway is basically a set up hand waiting to happen, because you'll just never have any idea if you're any good.
6,516,048  games	 0.125 secs	52,128,384  games/secBoard: Dead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	56.032%	  56.00% 	00.04% 		   3648765 		 2319.75   { AA }Hand 1: 	20.985%	  20.95% 	00.04% 		   1365081 		 2319.75   { 8s6s }Hand 2: 	13.156%	  13.12% 	00.04% 			854904 		 2319.75   { KdJc }Hand 3: 	09.827%	  09.79% 	00.04% 			638019 		 2319.75   { 9h3d }

'Your equity is still great since it's 4way, but you're unlikely to ever stack multiple people. I'd rather have 80-20 equity to win against one person who might be apt to put in rather than let 4 people see the flop and then let one person stack me as a 56-44.

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Against 1 player aces hold up something like 80% of the timeAgainst 3 players aces hold up like 50%I think this is about right?
To the extent you're implying that it is always undesirable to be in the pot with AA if you're less than 50% to win, you're failing to recognize how you make money playing poker. The objective is not to maximize your chance of winning any given pot, it's to maximize the total amount of money you win over time. If our primary concern is only to take down the pot, then you would want as few callers as you could get. In fact, with that mindset, 0 callers would be optimalBut if the objective is maximizing profit, you want to make whatever play maximizes expectation. Surely you recognize that it can be correct to call a bet on the flop when you're less than 50% to win the hand if the pot is laying you the right price. This concept is really no different.
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This is bleh thinking imo. If you were all in preflop against like 8 other people and you had aces that would be great because you would win more often than anyone else and it would be +EV. If you're in a hand against 4 people postflop with stacks remaining, you're only asking to put yourself in a situation where you are basically guessing if your aces are still any good. It's almost impossible to put 3 opponents on believable ranges if two people limp at 1/2, you make it 7, the BB calls, and the two limpers call (unless you have ridiculous impossible reads). They literally can have anything, therefore you cannot rule any particular hand out and are in a guessing game. If the flop comes J :club: 8 :ts 6 :4h , you can't rule any two pairs out, any sets out, any big draws out, anything. You're just basically going to bet and pray that every single person missed.Seeing the flop with aces multiway is basically a set up hand waiting to happen, because you'll just never have any idea if you're any good.
6,516,048  games	 0.125 secs	52,128,384  games/secBoard: Dead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	56.032%	  56.00% 	00.04% 		   3648765 		 2319.75   { AA }Hand 1: 	20.985%	  20.95% 	00.04% 		   1365081 		 2319.75   { 8s6s }Hand 2: 	13.156%	  13.12% 	00.04% 			854904 		 2319.75   { KdJc }Hand 3: 	09.827%	  09.79% 	00.04% 			638019 		 2319.75   { 9h3d }

'Your equity is still great since it's 4way, but you're unlikely to ever stack multiple people. I'd rather have 80-20 equity to win against one person who might be apt to put in rather than let 4 people see the flop and then let one person stack me as a 56-44.

Your point is well taken. But my point is just that if you raise preflop with AA and you start getting irritated once the 3rd guy enters the pot behind you, you're probably failing to appreciate the nature of expectation. If the problem is that you cannot lay down AA post flop once you're beat, then fix THAT leak, but stop incorrectly valuing winning percentage over expectation.
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To the extent you're implying that it is undesirable to be in the pot with AA of you're less than 50% to win, you're failing to recognize how you make money playing poker. The objective is not to maximize your chance of winning the pot, it's to maximize the amount of money you will win. If our primary concern is only to take down the pot, then you would want as few callers as you could get. In fact, with that mindset, 0 callers would be optimalBut if the objective is maximizing profit, you want to make whatever play maximizes expectation. Surely you recognize that it can be correct to call a bet on the flop when you're less than 50% to win the hand if the pot is laying you the right price. This concept is really no different.
I think you're misunderstanding and yet understanding at the same time. When you have AA, and have 5 opponents going to the flop, your hand actually becomes HEAVILY RIO. Not because you might be a small favorite or even a dog to win the pot 50 or more % of the time, but because you're going to get in situations where you have to basically GUESS what your opponent has on the flop. If you raise and get one caller, it's easier to play postflop than to play against 4 people, and thats a fact. There are VERY few times when even if the flop goes 3 or 4 way, that you're going to get action that you want from multiple people and be able to get it in good. If the flop comes 3-4 way and it doesn't contain an ace, you do not want action. You just don't, because generally that means the likelihood of you losing has increased heavily and you're usually beat, barring solid reads. You would HAVE to know that your opponent is going to get it in on a K T 8 board with KJ in a 5 way pot on the flop to consider it a good idea to get it in good with AA after 4 people see the flop, and then he still has to be at basically the bottom of his range for you to be ahead.
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You're point is well taken. But my point is just that if you raise preflop with AA and you start getting irritated once the 3rd guy enters the pot behind you, you're probably failing to appreciate the nature of expectation. If the problem is that you cannot lay down AA post flop once you're beat, then fix THAT leak, but stop incorrectly valuing winning percentage over expectation.
I'm not, but I'm sure even you can agree that it's better to be a heavily favorite to win over a small favorite? If you had a CHOICE, which you don't always have, surely you would take the 80-20 over then 56-44.
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I think you're misunderstanding and yet understanding at the same time. When you have AA, and have 5 opponents going to the flop, your hand actually becomes HEAVILY RIO. Not because you might be a small favorite or even a dog to win the pot 50 or more % of the time, but because you're going to get in situations where you have to basically GUESS what your opponent has on the flop. If you raise and get one caller, it's easier to play postflop than to play against 4 people, and thats a fact. There are VERY few times when even if the flop goes 3 or 4 way, that you're going to get action that you want from multiple people and be able to get it in good. If the flop comes 3-4 way and it doesn't contain an ace, you do not want action. You just don't, because generally that means the likelihood of you losing has increased heavily and you're usually beat, barring solid reads. You would HAVE to know that your opponent is going to get it in on a K T 8 board with KJ in a 5 way pot on the flop to consider it a good idea to get it in good with AA after 4 people see the flop, and then he still has to be at basically the bottom of his range for you to be ahead.
I was just about to edit my last post when I saw this one. I agree that post flop play is certainly much more difficult with numerous opponents and that this consideration certainly has merit. My only point was that it is a common error to value win percentage over expectation (an error which you clearly do not make). So to clarify, if you raise with AA preflop and start silently cursing your luck after the third caller because you are no longer greater than 50% to win the pot, you have a leak in your thinking. If you start cursing your luck because you know you're going to have a difficult time putting anyone on an accurate range post flop, that is perfectly acceptable. But that first post I responded to betrayed the former line of thought.
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I'm not, but I'm sure even you can agree that it's better to be a heavily favorite to win over a small favorite? If you had a CHOICE, which you don't always have, surely you would take the 80-20 over then 56-44.
Well, this hypo is somewhat meaningless without more information. All things being equal, the answer is self apparent. But would you rather be a small favorite to win a pot with $10K in the middle or a huge favorite to win a pot with only $10 in it? This obviously goes back to my original point about the primary objective being the maximization of expectation. You obviously appreciate this fact, but not everyone does, as evidenced by the common erroneous attachment to 50%. I realize it was somewhat unclear but my suggestion to stop overvaluing win percentage was not directed specifically to you, it was more of a general observation.
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Well, this hypo is somewhat meaningless without more information. All things being equal, the answer is self apparent. But would you rather be a small favorite to win a pot with $10K in the middle or a huge favorite to win a pot with only $10 in it? This obviously goes back to my original point about the primary objective being the maximization of expectation. You obviously appreciate this fact, but not everyone does, as evidenced by the common erroneous attachment to 50%. I realize it was somewhat unclear but my suggestion to stop overvaluing win percentage was not directed specifically to you, it was more of a general observation.
I understand, I just didn't want to let it go if you were thinking it was great if you get 5 callers with aces, because although it's still +EV either way, it isn't very fun to have that happen to you, because you'll usually end up getting it in bad.I dunno if KJ was saying it's better to play AA vs 1 person because it is simpler, or because of the EV/win percentage situation. I lean towards him thinking it was because it is easier to play than because he wants to be a bigger favorite.
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I understand that the more that I raise, the fewer people that I have to compete against. But I can't overstate the fact that I wanted to keep the villain in the hand. Keep in mind, I had played for about an hour and a half on $8 because I got no hands that would play. My image was that of a very tight player. If I raise this pot to $15, I really believe that I would have taken down the 8-10 bucks already in the pot. Again, I am trying to learn the right ways to make more money out of my big hands. The last time that I raised to $7.00 with AA, in nearly the same situation, I made $185 from the hand. With the hand that the villain had, there is no question that if I raise to $15, I lose him. I discussed this hand with my son today. He has played a lot of pots with the villain and he agrees that I should raise to 15-20 here. When I explained the whole hand to him, he agreed that raising to 20 would probably have pushed Peanut(the villain) out. My son feels that if I had pushed the flop, Peanut would have thought that I had AQ and probably would have folded.Listen, to win the hand, the $7 bet was incorrect. IMO, though, to maximize profits, in this situation with a totally correct and experienced read on the villain who is prone to gamble and bluff big, the pf bet is correct. At this point, where I really feel like I messed up was not pushing the flop. The $20 more to Peanut was nothing with his Q4o. The flop was where I should have taken my profits knowing full well that peanut could easily be playing a Q. In fact, I thought there was a strong possibility that he had a Q. But I could not fold for $22 on the turn. And against Peanut, and because I had seen him make this kind of bluff when me missed, on several occasions, I felt like the pot was big enough that I had to call the river. I just let my desire to win a big pot win over what I knew in my gut was a bad beat.

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I understand that the more that I raise, the fewer people that I have to compete against. But I can't overstate the fact that I wanted to keep the villain in the hand. Keep in mind, I had played for about an hour and a half on $8 because I got no hands that would play. My image was that of a very tight player. If I raise this pot to $15, I really believe that I would have taken down the 8-10 bucks already in the pot. Again, I am trying to learn the right ways to make more money out of my big hands. The last time that I raised to $7.00 with AA, in nearly the same situation, I made $185 from the hand. With the hand that the villain had, there is no question that if I raise to $15, I lose him.
Do you expect to lose the other limpers as well? If so, then make this play with a lot more hands than just AA.
I discussed this hand with my son today. He has played a lot of pots with the villain and he agrees that I should raise to 15-20 here. When I explained the whole hand to him, he agreed that raising to 20 would probably have pushed Peanut(the villain) out. My son feels that if I had pushed the flop, Peanut would have thought that I had AQ and probably would have folded.Listen, to win the hand, the $7 bet was incorrect. IMO, though, to maximize profits, in this situation with a totally correct and experienced read on the villain who is prone to gamble and bluff big, the pf bet is correct. At this point, where I really feel like I messed up was not pushing the flop. The $20 more to Peanut was nothing with his Q4o. The flop was where I should have taken my profits knowing full well that peanut could easily be playing a Q. In fact, I thought there was a strong possibility that he had a Q. But I could not fold for $22 on the turn. And against Peanut, and because I had seen him make this kind of bluff when me missed, on several occasions, I felt like the pot was big enough that I had to call the river. I just let my desire to win a big pot win over what I knew in my gut was a bad beat.
I think there's too much focus on results here.We don't know that he has Q4o when we raise to $7. Isn't most of his range going to call $12? Because we happened to hit the bottom of his range this time, doesn't make this the best raise size in general.When we raise the flop against his 5-outer, we don't know that he's going to catch on the turn. His calling the flop raise is a good thing and our bet sizing is a success.We don't know if he's bluffing at the end. We played the hand with a style specifically to give him an opportunity to bluff. This time he wasn't. That doesn't make it a mistake to pay him off.
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I pretty much agree with Nobbir.The thing is when you get three or four callers, your potential ev is lower because they're not all going to put stacks in post flop. All that happens is you end up getting the money in against the 1 or 2 hands out of 3 or 4 or 5 that hit the flop hardest. And as someone already said, a raise to $15 and 1 caller is the same pot size on the flop as a raise to 7 and 3 callers. Plus easy poker is profitable poker.

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