lhe, fish waking up

[Actuary 3]

same ole crap...any options?villan is45/0/0.53 after 30 hands..typical fish..yet small sample tooRaise turn for free showdown paly has been suggested...to get the extra bet if I set/two pair...Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converterPreflop: Actuary is MP1 with Js, Jd. 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: (8 SB) 7c, 9h, 2d (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Actuary bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.Turn: (6 BB) 4d (4 players)SB bets, BB calls, Actuary calls, CO calls.River: (10 BB) Qh (4 players)SB bets, BB calls, Actuary calls, CO folds.Final Pot: 13 BB

[akishore 0]

if this was heads-up, calling down was fine.multiway, you want to be raising that turn. if you can get that CO to fold, your winning chances go up a lot. you set yourself up for a free showdown at the same time, etc.really raise that turn since it's multiway.aseem

[109suited 0]

I was thinking the same thing. It's an easy call down HU, but raising the turn makes a lot of sense with 4 people.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I am baffled why no raise on the turn...the 4 is not a scare card in any way IMO unless he flopped a set. A raise here will most likely eliminate some players, and let you know where you stand (if he raises you are probably beat, but will call it down UI. 8)

[justblaze 0]

has anyone suggested raising the turn?

[greatwhite 0]

Well since your playing .50/1 everyone is going to call with a pair of 2s anyway. More than likely your ahead so it would be good to build the pot. People will be calling you with their gunshots here like a3, a5, trying to make a hand. The small blind may have a set of 2s or 4s or a hand like 24 suited, but raise and find out on the turn.

[justblaze 0]

Well since your playing .50/1 everyone is going to call with a pair of 2s anyway.  More than likely your ahead so it would be good to build the pot. People will be calling you with their gunshots here like a3, a5, trying to make a hand. The small blind may have a set of 2s or 4s or a hand like 24 suited, but raise and find out on the turn.

hmm, good advice. berate the posters low limits, then speculate wildly on a range of opponent hands from gutshot to set.

[slash 0]

SB has A3 and on the turn is betting because he wants to build the pot for when he hits his 4 (well, actually 7 against you) outer - pure brilliance, right there - and he also thinks he can win with A high by betting both the turn and river and making you into a scaredy cat so you fold. But that isn't going to happen because you're going to raise this turn 100% of the time, and you hope everybody else folds, and then you call down with SB.Or maybe he has a random 9 or 7 and didn't think it was any good, but once another small card came on the turn, he figured his second pair just had to be good against whatever crap you raised with preflop. The play works the same as above.Off chance he has a set or a random two pair. The play should be the same as above.You're ahead of this as.shat here most of the time. Raise that turn.

[Actuary 3]

from my addmittingly limited experience, no . I am not ahead of this most of the time.People (SB) with 53/0/0.53 don't start betting into a raiser unless they just hit there set, two pair, or other made handThey don't bet draws..they call draws.Now, Aseem....even if I am beat (assume I am..fish don't bet, usually), is it still worth a rasie on the turn? I see it as spewing, since I have two outs.The pot was too big to fold the river, but I was sure enough I was beat to consider it strongly. I ddin't see a rasie getting me to a free showdown...but maybe...and I could get an extra bet if a jack hit...but I was not ahead of sb...in almost 100% of the caese this happens.Do I have to raise the turn as a deperate attempt to save the pot? It's not CO that worries me...as much as SB.

[akishore 0]

actuary,raising with the second-best hand is often correct.others are saying you are ahead most of the time. you disagree, and i also disagree.we realize that you're beat here when a passive player suddenly wakes up.STILL, the fact that the pot is multiway makes investing an extra bet or two into a semi-large pot worth it.example:player A - 50%you - 30%player B - 20%player A bets, you raise, player B folds, player A reraises, you call. you've invested two extra bets (sometimes one if player A just calls your raise, hoping to checkraise the next street, which also sets you up for a free card or free showdown, etc.), but it was worth it because now the percentages look like...player A - 60%you - 40%when you read theory of poker, it's in there.aseem

[akishore 0]

by the way, again, stop thinking that you have just two outs.an overpair against two board pair has at least 8 outs.aseem

[greatwhite 0]

Well since your playing .50/1 everyone is going to call with a pair of 2s anyway.  More than likely your ahead so it would be good to build the pot. People will be calling you with their gunshots here like a3, a5, trying to make a hand. The small blind may have a set of 2s or 4s or a hand like 24 suited, but raise and find out on the turn.

hmm, good advice. berate the posters low limits, then speculate wildly on a range of opponent hands from gutshot to set.

How about you actually post some advice then bigshot???

[justblaze 0]

Well since your playing .50/1 everyone is going to call with a pair of 2s anyway.  More than likely your ahead so it would be good to build the pot. People will be calling you with their gunshots here like a3, a5, trying to make a hand. The small blind may have a set of 2s or 4s or a hand like 24 suited, but raise and find out on the turn.

hmm, good advice. berate the posters low limits, then speculate wildly on a range of opponent hands from gutshot to set.

How about you actually post some advice then bigshot???

actually, i posted the same advice you did, just without the snide remark about the limits and the wild hand range speculation.

[greatwhite 0]

All I was saying was you never know what your opponent will turn over at the river in .50/1. I'm not degrading the player.

[Actuary 3]

by the way, again, stop thinking that you have just two outs. an overpair against two board pair has at least 8 outs. I feel like I'm your project and I appreciate all your help.After finishing SSHE, I will read TOP.I bought both together, along with Miller's beginner's hold'em book, which I already read.( I let future knowledge creep in to the discussion..since he had a set...I thought 2 outs...but during the hand..yes..I nned to consider the likelihood that I have 8 outs ).In your %'s example, are you demonstrating that my pot equity improves by rasing the turn, if we can get CO to fold? It's tough for me to learn to do these equity plays. It must be pot size dependent (it all is, right) because my equity gain has to offset the price of the raise and possible re-raise (subtracting the value of possible free showdown...) So if the pot was 4BB, this move is not so good, true?? Is the pot big enough in the exmaple posted?Raising from the button when I have 9 outs to the nut flush and 6 players in the pot, now that I can do.

[justblaze 0]

All I was saying was you never know what your opponent will turn over at the river in .50/1. I'm not degrading the player.

all im saying is this is player specific, not stakes specific. There are many good players at those limits, and many horrid players at 15-30.

[justblaze 0]

by the way, again, stop thinking that you have just two outs.  an overpair against two board pair has at least 8 outs. I feel like I'm your project    and I appreciate all your help.After finishing SSHE, I will read TOP.I bought both together, along with Miller's beginner's hold'em book, which I already read.( I let future knowledge creep in to the discussion..since he had a set...I thought 2 outs...but during the hand..yes..I nned to consider the likelihood that I have 8 outs ).In your %'s example, are you demonstrating that my pot equity improves by rasing the turn, if we can get CO to fold?  It's tough for me to learn to do these equity plays.  It must be pot size dependent (it all is, right) because my equity gain has to offset the price of the raise and possible re-raise (subtracting the value of possible free showdown...)  So if the pot was 4BB, this move is not so good, true??  Is the pot big enough in the exmaple posted?Raising from the button when I have 9 outs to the nut flush and 6 players in the pot, now that I can do.

the equity must offset the cost of buying said equity, yes. In other words, good play in big pot, bad play in small pot.

[akishore 0]

yeah, the equity has to be high enough to compensate for the extra bet or two.since you can't calculate precisely at all without complete information, much less in the heat of battle, you just make estimates. here, you can estimate you have around 8 outs (maybe round down to 6 if you feel there's a good chance you might be up against a set).if you have enough overlay to chase, raising is often correct.in general, the bigger the pot, the more correct it is to raise. the smaller, the less correct.aseem

[DKE_XP120 0]

gotta raise the turn, if he has 2 pair, you can still pull ahead with the board pairing one of the other cards (that he isnt holding obviously) if you raise here, you can hopefully get someone else with a pair fold and clean up those outs