So Just What Is Waterboarding? Now You Know...

[nutzbuster 7]

Below is a clip of a journalist volunteering to undergo the procedure. It is not violent or gross in any way.But is it torture? Was this guy physically hurt? maimed? Beaten? Bloodied?Obviously this is psychologically taxing.....but is this "torture"?http://content1.clipmarks.com/content/7E8A...4-3A07CF501B7C/

[Ninjafoo 0]

I think of it as humane torture

[CaneBrain 95]

yes.

[offset 0]

One guy they did it to can't control his bladder when he gets nervous now because of it. Besides the fact of the matter is torture doesn't work. You or I would say anything to stop the pain of physchological pain stop. It just doesn't work. Interrogation isn't perfect but it works better.

[Balloon guy 158]

One guy they did it to can't control his bladder when he gets nervous now because of it. Besides the fact of the matter is torture doesn't work. You or I would say anything to stop the pain of physchological pain stop. It just doesn't work. Interrogation isn't perfect but it works better.

Of course it works.That's just Hollywood silliness saying that torture doesn't work.It has always worked when done right.The military had to change their 'rules' about soldiers being tortured in Vietnam because it always worked. They went from it being an act of treason to give in to torture, to just hold out as long as you can. ( Because it worked )And the 3 guys who got waterboarded by the US in the last 8 years? Worked on them too

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Yes torture, but not as bad as watching an average Geico commercial.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

is it torture?

Does Charlie Daniels play a mean fiddle?

There you go.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

There you go.

[hblask 1]

Every person who has had it done to them agrees it is torture.And no, torture doesn't work, unless the goal is to get people to say things that make you stop torturing them regardless of the truth of what they are saying.

[CaneBrain 95]

Every person who has had it done to them agrees it is torture.And no, torture doesn't work, unless the goal is to get people to say things that make you stop torturing them regardless of the truth of what they are saying.

The US government agrees it is torture because they convicted a number of Japanese soldiers of war crimes for water-boarding American troops during World War 2.

[Balloon guy 158]

Every person who has had it done to them agrees it is torture.And no, torture doesn't work, unless the goal is to get people to say things that make you stop torturing them regardless of the truth of what they are saying.

Worked on Abu Zubaydah

[hblask 1]

Worked on Abu Zubaydah

Maybe. If you believe everything your government tells you, I guess. And if you believe that he gave information that would not have been acquired by other means.And you don't believe in fundamental human rights.So maybe.

[Balloon guy 158]

Maybe. If you believe everything your government tells you, I guess. And if you believe that he gave information that would not have been acquired by other means.And you don't believe in fundamental human rights.So maybe.

I thought you knew I was a republican...

[JoeyJoJo 18]

Of course, the belief in fundamental human rights has no bearing on the effectiveness of torture.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Of course, the belief in fundamental human rights has no bearing on the effectiveness of torture.

Well, it depends on the end toward which you want to be effective.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well all I know is:Zubayduh knew something and wasn't talkingThey waterboarded himThen he talkedand talkedand talkedand we got intel that saved lives.So you may not want them on that wall, but you NEED them on that wall

[hblask 1]

Well all I know is:Zubayduh knew something and wasn't talkingThey waterboarded himThen he talkedand talkedand talkedand we got intel that saved lives.So you may not want them on that wall, but you NEED them on that wall

This reminds of that story I heard about this one guy who had some really hard luck, but then the welfare system picked him up and he went on to turn around his life.Of course, the pre-Clinton welfare state was, on average, a disaster, trapping multiple generations in poverty and harming way more people than it helped.Even if you can find a case where torturing somebody possibly helped, you must admit that, over the longer picture of human history, giving governments the right to ignore the fundamental value of a human being has cost way, way more lives than could ever be saved through the use of torture. I believe the current total of deaths due to governments ignoring fundamental human rights is well over 250,000,000. How many lives has torture saved?

[Jeepster80125 0]

This reminds of that story I heard about this one guy who had some really hard luck, but then the welfare system picked him up and he went on to turn around his life.Of course, the pre-Clinton welfare state was, on average, a disaster, trapping multiple generations in poverty and harming way more people than it helped.Even if you can find a case where torturing somebody possibly helped, you must admit that, over the longer picture of human history, giving governments the right to ignore the fundamental value of a human being has cost way, way more lives than could ever be saved through the use of torture. I believe the current total of deaths due to governments ignoring fundamental human rights is well over 250,000,000. How many lives has torture saved?

You better hope he doesn't use the model that obama is using to calculate saved jobs.

[GeddyL. 0]

Like many folks that have been through advanced special forces training, I have been water boarded... and YES it's torture. Much of it however is technically psychological, as the technique causes a sensation whereby your brain/body feels as is you're drowning. It was a horrible experience to say the least. Like a lot of people, I have a tendency to black out from the experience... but results and experiences differ. Does it work?? Certainly the victim is scared sh!tless, and believes they are suffocating. But most studies show that torture just forces the "victim" (i use that term loosely) to tell the one doing the torturing what they want to hear... 'cause that's what stops the torture. So you get sooo many false positives. You'd be surprised what people will admit to under duress

[strategy 4]

Even if you can find a case where torturing somebody possibly helped, you must admit that, over the longer picture of human history, giving governments the right to ignore the fundamental value of a human being has cost way, way more lives than could ever be saved through the use of torture. I believe the current total of deaths due to governments ignoring fundamental human rights is well over 250,000,000. How many lives has torture saved?

[waiting patiently for BG to turn this into a christian vs. atheist government argument]

[Balloon guy 158]

[waiting patiently for BG to turn this into a christian vs. atheist government argument]

I am becoming too predictable...

[nutzbuster 7]

I guess the question then becomes what are the acceptable ways to get information?We certainly have a right and duty to try to get information from prisoners in a war setting especially. I agree that this waterboarding procedure looks terribly uncomfortable, but so was getting tickled to the point of tears as a kid by my brother until I screamed "Uncle". I am also pretty sure that "uncomfortable" techniques do not rank up there with whipped, beaten, vice-grip fingernail extraction, car battery shock therapy, hot cigar branding, etc.Regarding the false positive concern, my guess is the folks doing this know when people are full of shit or if are telling them the truth. I mean, those advocating the "lets just have tea and crumpets, give them hugs and just ask them nicely" technique could still get that same false positive. Not advocating waterboarding exactly but if this was the worst we did than I think we were pretty humane about the whole thing.

[CaneBrain 95]

I guess the question then becomes what are the acceptable ways to get information?We certainly have a right and duty to try to get information from prisoners in a war setting especially. I agree that this waterboarding procedure looks terribly uncomfortable, but so was getting tickled to the point of tears as a kid by my brother until I screamed "Uncle". I am also pretty sure that "uncomfortable" techniques do not rank up there with whipped, beaten, vice-grip fingernail extraction, car battery shock therapy, hot cigar branding, etc.Regarding the false positive concern, my guess is the folks doing this know when people are full of shit or if are telling them the truth. I mean, those advocating the "lets just have tea and crumpets, give them hugs and just ask them nicely" technique could still get that same false positive. Not advocating waterboarding exactly but if this was the worst we did than I think we were pretty humane about the whole thing.

Yes, clearly, the only two possible interrogation techniques are either simulated drowning or lets just have tea and crumpets. I am glad that you guess that the folks doing this know when people are full of shit. My counter-argument would be the "intelligence" used to make the case for the Iraq war. Either everyone missed that a source was 'full of shit' or it was all made up. Not two attractive options.Lol at comparing being tickled to simulated drowning. You can certainly make the argument that there are circumstances where it seems appropriate to torture someone. But stop pretending like water boarding was 'pretty humane'.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

I'd like to hear vb's thoughts on the idea that psychological torture is humane.

[vbnautilus 48]

I'd like to hear vb's thoughts on the idea that psychological torture is humane.

Well one thing I can add is that "psychological" and "physical" pain are not really distinct entities. We know now that psychological pain recruits many of the same brain circuits as physical pain. In other words, it really hurts. So if one is against physical torture, exempting psychological torture on the basis that it is "only" psychological does not seem to me a very strong position.