sit n go's

[steve7stud 0]

So, I have been meaning to write about this for some time, and here I am. The information that I'm going to share is something that I have used myself and found to be IMMENSELEY profitable. Regardless of what stakes you're playing, you should be able to consistantly win with this system.First of all, I don't really view sng's as poker. I think it's more of a math game, and a mathematical way to build your BR. So with that, you can throw creativity right out the window.You will rarely if ever be able to get a read on anyone is a sng, so why bother trying. Stick to a set formula. Normally you will never hear me saying that.In the beginning, ONLY play PREMIUM hands. Limp with small pairs, and fold to raises. Don't mix it up. Don't get cute. You really have two options, raising, and moving all in. The goal is to get to the top 3, and that's it. Let other people knock themselves out. And believe me, they will...........all the time.Once you get to the top 3, it's time to move in with any pair, Ace, or Big King. You just figure to be a favorite against two random hands.Feel free to ask any questions. But most of what I said should be pretty self explanatory.If and when you put this system into place, you SHOULD be winning on a consistant basis. Good Luck.

[screech 0]

Steve,I'm a little confused about the raise or move all in comment. At party, this is usually what I do early on if a pot has been raised pf. The pots on the flop are usually about 1/3 of the stacks, and value bets are essentially useless. At a site like stars, I think value bets early on become much more important.

[steve7stud 0]

Steve,I'm a little confused about the raise or move all in comment. At party, this is usually what I do early on if a pot has been raised pf. The pots on the flop are usually about 1/3 of the stacks, and value bets are essentially useless. At a site like stars, I think value bets early on become much more important.

Great point. Come to think of it, I've only played sng's on Party. Whenever I'm playing a sng, I'm multi-tabling. Usually playing four tables. The key for me is to simplify things. And ironcially, I have found that if I do move all in with say Ace King, I will often get called by Ace 10.If you have found value bets on Stars to be profitable, I would really have to play some sng's there to determine for myself. But a lot of those same people who are calling your small to medium bets, might call an all in bet as well.

[Vick12 0]

SteveI couldn't agree with you more. BTW are u referring to 6, 10, or up to 18 person sng's? I am definately on the TAG side, so this style fits me perfect. Just yesterday I get KK in the big blind, (10/20) UTG raises to $100, button calls, I pop it to $500. Both guys call. Flop is Jack, rag, rag. I bet my last $1000 or so, UTG INSTA call as does the button.I show KKButton Shows AJUTG show JJ!Now...I use this example not as a bad beat story, but to illustrate the kind of action u can get early on. (Seriously...AJ to a raise OK...but for $500 preflop after a reraise????)In 6 person's, once it hits 3 people I shift gear MAJOR LEAGUE! After being really tight for the 1st 1/2 hour, (if it even takes that long to get to 3 people) I start playing more like Tuan Le and it really throws people. So if they have been paying attention, my aggression get tons of respect and if they haven't paid attention...well it's likely I will outplay them since they don't know what I have am up to. In these cases I usually stay fairly tight, since they are too negligent to notice my traps etc.I also look at it like this...I would rather get all my money in as a slight favorite preflop when it's down to 3 and I have a chance to KO somebody and cash, than get my money in as a 65%-70% fave preflop and risk my stack when there is a semi-full or full table. (Not that I mind seeing Aces or Kings early, but I will still bust out 1 of 5 times w/ them)Is that correct or incorrect thinking Steve?Thanks

[HtotheNootch 0]

This makes a lot of sense for party SnGs. Fulltilt's a different animal. I once cashed two party SnGs, while a Fulltilt one was still 5 handed.

[steve7stud 0]

SteveI couldn't agree with you more. BTW are u referring to 6, 10, or up to 18 person sng's? I am definately on the TAG side, so this style fits me perfect. Just yesterday I get KK in the big blind, (10/20) UTG raises to $100, button calls, I pop it to $500. Both guys call. Flop is Jack, rag, rag. I bet my last $1000 or so, UTG INSTA call as does the button.I show KKButton Shows AJUTG show JJ!Now...I use this example not as a bad beat story, but to illustrate the kind of action u can get early on. (Seriously...AJ to a raise OK...but for $500 preflop after a reraise????)In 6 person's, once it hits 3 people I shift gear MAJOR LEAGUE! After being really tight for the 1st 1/2 hour, (if it even takes that long to get to 3 people) I start playing more like Tuan Le and it really throws people. So if they have been paying attention, my aggression get tons of respect and if they haven't paid attention...well it's likely I will outplay them since they don't know what I have am up to. In these cases I usually stay fairly tight, since they are too negligent to notice my traps etc.I also look at it like this...I would rather get all my money in as a slight favorite preflop when it's down to 3 and I have a chance to KO somebody and cash, than get my money in as a 65%-70% fave preflop and risk my stack when there is a semi-full or full table. (Not that I mind seeing Aces or Kings early, but I will still bust out 1 of 5 times w/ them)Is that correct or incorrect thinking Steve?Thanks

Here's something interesting. UTG raises to 100, button calls, and you raised it to 500. If it were me. I would just move all in. Couple of reasons for doing that. I'm usually playing several sng's and I don't want to "think" about what if's. Second, people will call. Crazy as it sounds, they just assume that you're stealing. So they will call you with a ton of hands that are HUGE underdogs to pockets Kings.I don't mind what you said about getting your money in as a slight favorite toward the end, as opposed to the beginning. The goal is to get to the top 3. I'm still happy to get my money in early on with any premium hand, but I see your point.You can never look at a sng as an indivual event. They are a series of hands really. And if you play those hands correctly, you should do a lot of winning.

[steve7stud 0]

This makes a lot of sense for party SnGs. Fulltilt's a different animal. I once cashed two party SnGs, while a Fulltilt one was still 5 handed.

Great point. I am only speaking about Party sng's. I have yet to play a sng on any other site. But in the future I will, and talk about optimal strategy for each site as well.

[KingAustin 0]

How should one play when it's 4-5 handed?

[econ_tim 0]

i read this thread and then took second in a party 5+1i posted the whole SNG here.feel free to comment on any hand.

[steve7stud 0]

How should one play when it's 4-5 handed?

Good question. Obviously, it depends on how many chips you have. Usually, I let other people knock themselves out. But, I'm not going to fold premium hands either. My style in the beginning is generally the same style that I have until I get to the final three.

[steve7stud 0]

i read this thread and then took second in a party 5+1i posted the whole SNG here.feel free to comment on any hand.

My cut is........, lol. Kidding. Hope that the thread helped. I realize now that it's much more applicable to Party sng's. I should try some others to see how they work. I really don't play many sng's these days. But before I posted this I played seven. I took second in 3 of them. So the sytem does work.I tried to look for your results but they were not appearing.

[KingAustin 0]

How should one play when it's 4-5 handed?

Good question. Obviously, it depends on how many chips you have. Usually, I let other people knock themselves out. But, I'm not going to fold premium hands either. My style in the beginning is generally the same style that I have until I get to the final three.

I'm down to 410 with 8 people left, blinds of 25/50 and I cant catch any hands. What do you suggest someone should do in a situation where they become low stacked and will most likely be called if they go all in?

[steve7stud 0]

How should one play when it's 4-5 handed?

Good question. Obviously, it depends on how many chips you have. Usually, I let other people knock themselves out. But, I'm not going to fold premium hands either. My style in the beginning is generally the same style that I have until I get to the final three.

I'm down to 410 with 8 people left, blinds of 25/50 and I cant catch any hands. What do you suggest someone should do in a situation where they become low stacked and will most likely be called if they go all in?

If you are playing a 10 person sng you're obviously not in great shape right now. You not only will get called, you WANT to get called. Even if you are an underdog, you need to double up. Use my final three strategy.

[econ_tim 0]

here is the file

[HtotheNootch 0]

This makes a lot of sense for party SnGs. Fulltilt's a different animal. I once cashed two party SnGs, while a Fulltilt one was still 5 handed.

Great point. I am only speaking about Party sng's. I have yet to play a sng on any other site. But in the future I will, and talk about optimal strategy for each site as well.

And because of you, I'll watch prime gig.

[steve7stud 0]

here is the file

Nice job.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I like your idea...But my complaint is this. What percentage do you have to be ITM to beat the juice, long-term, and how high is the variance? It's something between 40% and 50%, and even worse for Party's $5+$1 20% juice.I personally just don't think sit and go's, (ESPECIALLY Party) are profitable for making long-term money because ofa) the structure leads itself to preflop move-ins from 5th place on downb) as that happens, results tend to approach math more and cut down on "statistical outliers" a.k.a. long term winners who win because of consistently correct decisions.c) variance is... high, for lack of evidence or data to back that up.I do know from my own experiences, that you can make the objectively correct poker decision ALL the time, and still frequently lose because you're rarely better than 60/40 all in preflop... and you have to be all in a lot preflop to win.I'd really love to see a data table, but I can't even decide how big a sample size is statistically significant. I think it needs to be closer to 1000 SnG's than 100 SnG's.

[gpineo 0]

Steve7Stud,I can't agree more with you post.I have been unable to make any BR increase playing Limit/PotLimit so I decided lets try a 5+1 at PartyPoker. The first few attempts I didn't fair well. So I decided the only way to make it in the $$ was to play TAG and I made it to the final table and placed 3rd. I played another one again with the same TAG and placed second.Wow I said this works so I did again and WON my first S&G. So out of lets say 8 S&G's I have cashed on 3. Percentage isn't overall great but it's increasing my BR. :-) That's the goal here to increase the BR.But as mentioned from others in this post it's only from PartyPoker. I have tried the same on FullTilt with much more difficult experience. I haven't yet made it to the final table with the same TAG play. I haven't played as many S&G's on FullTilt either. But will for sure attempt more.But I find the players on FullTilt much more TAG and much harder to achive those results that I am getting from PartyPoker.But I agree with this TAG approach to make it to the final table.Great Post

[rusmac31 0]

Steve,I've played Party SNG's for over a year now and have been profitable at the $10+1 and the $20+2 (although I usually play the 2-table as I like the blind structure and payout better).When I first started playing, I played very simliar to what you've described TAG early (first hour), letting people go out, super aggressive when I have a monster, etc...My question comes how to play once you are in the money. Most people tend to loosen up and become much more aggresive once they've made the money and I understand that usually by that time blinds are extremely valuable, etc...But over the past few months, i've altered my strategy a bit. Once I get in the money, I tighten up a bit as the way I see it, I've just spent 1.5 hours winning $20. If I tighten up and play solid poker, I can win anywhere from $20 - $60 more in the next 30 minutes (as 2-table tourneys last between 1.75 and 2 hours). And since the majority of players become loose-aggresive in the money, this seems to work well. Down to 4 players, in the money, I'd favor a tighter strategy than a looser one. All i need is for 1 LAG and I've got a good chance to add to my earnings.I'm probably not explaining my theory very well but there it is...your thoughts?

[gpineo 0]

Rusmac31,That's exactly what I have been doing. I get to the final table and still play TAG and I have been able to improve my position and get addional $$$.I play the 5+1. If I was to go to the 10 or 20 would the approach work the same as we have been discussing?But you say the 2-Table has a better payout then the 3-Table? Actually what difference other then the payouts are there?

[rusmac31 0]

First off, I'm definitely no expert so take my advice with a grain of salt :-) I do however finish in the money around 37% - 40% which is not great but it's not bad either.That being said,1. If your bankroll allows it, I'd strongly recommend not playing the 5+1 SNG's regardless of the # of players. The 20% rake is too high.2. I've only played the 10+1 and 20+2 on party and there seems to be little difference in the quality of players. I've been in SNG's at both levels where you are down to 10 players by round 4. I've also played in some at both levels where there are 14 players left by round 6. I think you begin to notice a difference when you get to 30+3 and 50+5. I've played in a few of those and notice that the players tend to be much more tight-aggresive.3. I haven't played too many 3 table SNG's on Party. I've played the 1 and 2 table SNG's and I just happen to like the fact you start with 1000 chips vs 800 chips.Free advice...use at your own risk! :-)

[gpineo 0]

Thanks for the advice :-) I am just having a hard time with the increasing of my BR. And I seem to be doing much better in the NL games. The S&G and Tournies are becoming a better place for me to cash.The only problem is I am down in the $30 range for BR and I need a way to get it back up. If I play a few more 5+1 S&G's and get a increase in my bankroll then I will go to the 10+1 & then 20 +2.Any more suggestions to help the increase of BR is appreciated.Thanks Again.

[steve7stud 0]

I like your idea...But my complaint is this. What percentage do you have to be ITM to beat the juice, long-term, and how high is the variance? It's something between 40% and 50%, and even worse for Party's $5+$1 20% juice.I personally just don't think sit and go's, (ESPECIALLY Party) are profitable for making long-term money because ofa) the structure leads itself to preflop move-ins from 5th place on downB) as that happens, results tend to approach math more and cut down on "statistical outliers" a.k.a. long term winners who win because of consistently correct decisions.c) variance is... high, for lack of evidence or data to back that up.I do know from my own experiences, that you can make the objectively correct poker decision ALL the time, and still frequently lose because you're rarely better than 60/40 all in preflop... and you have to be all in a lot preflop to win.I'd really love to see a data table, but I can't even decide how big a sample size is statistically significant. I think it needs to be closer to 1000 SnG's than 100 SnG's.

If it's 5+1 or 10+1, I would obviously choose 10+1. Or 20+2, and so on. You should never pay more then 10% for juice. Even that is a bit high. But, with the system that I use. And believe me, it's not some stroke of genuis, lol. I think you can and will make money. Not so much from your play, but from other people make realy bad plays.

[steve7stud 0]

Steve,I've played Party SNG's for over a year now and have been profitable at the $10+1 and the $20+2 (although I usually play the 2-table as I like the blind structure and payout better).When I first started playing, I played very simliar to what you've described TAG early (first hour), letting people go out, super aggressive when I have a monster, etc...My question comes how to play once you are in the money. Most people tend to loosen up and become much more aggresive once they've made the money and I understand that usually by that time blinds are extremely valuable, etc...But over the past few months, i've altered my strategy a bit. Once I get in the money, I tighten up a bit as the way I see it, I've just spent 1.5 hours winning $20. If I tighten up and play solid poker, I can win anywhere from $20 - $60 more in the next 30 minutes (as 2-table tourneys last between 1.75 and 2 hours). And since the majority of players become loose-aggresive in the money, this seems to work well. Down to 4 players, in the money, I'd favor a tighter strategy than a looser one. All i need is for 1 LAG and I've got a good chance to add to my earnings.I'm probably not explaining my theory very well but there it is...your thoughts?

Glad that you're having success. You explained your final stage theory quite well. At least I understood it. There are pros and cons to continuing a TAG style once you're in the money. The cons imo opinion outweigh the pros. You really can't sit and wait for a hand. The blinds are generally too high in comparison to your stack, so I rarely raise, I just move in. I make the same play with King 10 as well as Aces. I never want to be the person making the decision. I always want to put pressure on the other players. In addition, I'm usually playing several tournys at the same time. Having said all of that, moving in is what I have found to be profitable for me. If you have found an altarnate system, that's great as well.

[Vick12 0]

SteveI couldn't agree with you more. BTW are u referring to 6, 10, or up to 18 person sng's? I am definately on the TAG side, so this style fits me perfect. Just yesterday I get KK in the big blind, (10/20) UTG raises to $100, button calls, I pop it to $500. Both guys call. Flop is Jack, rag, rag. I bet my last $1000 or so, UTG INSTA call as does the button.I show KKButton Shows AJUTG show JJ!Now...I use this example not as a bad beat story, but to illustrate the kind of action u can get early on. (Seriously...AJ to a raise OK...but for $500 preflop after a reraise????)In 6 person's, once it hits 3 people I shift gear MAJOR LEAGUE! After being really tight for the 1st 1/2 hour, (if it even takes that long to get to 3 people) I start playing more like Tuan Le and it really throws people. So if they have been paying attention, my aggression get tons of respect and if they haven't paid attention...well it's likely I will outplay them since they don't know what I have am up to. In these cases I usually stay fairly tight, since they are too negligent to notice my traps etc.I also look at it like this...I would rather get all my money in as a slight favorite preflop when it's down to 3 and I have a chance to KO somebody and cash, than get my money in as a 65%-70% fave preflop and risk my stack when there is a semi-full or full table. (Not that I mind seeing Aces or Kings early, but I will still bust out 1 of 5 times w/ them)Is that correct or incorrect thinking Steve?Thanks

Here's something interesting. UTG raises to 100, button calls, and you raised it to 500. If it were me. I would just move all in. Couple of reasons for doing that. I'm usually playing several sng's and I don't want to "think" about what if's. Second, people will call. Crazy as it sounds, they just assume that you're stealing. So they will call you with a ton of hands that are HUGE underdogs to pockets Kings.I don't mind what you said about getting your money in as a slight favorite toward the end, as opposed to the beginning. The goal is to get to the top 3. I'm still happy to get my money in early on with any premium hand, but I see your point.You can never look at a sng as an indivual event. They are a series of hands really. And if you play those hands correctly, you should do a lot of winning.

Steve,Interesting point on the all in move on my hand. The more i think about it, the more I am convinced they both call...and so will many others. Sorta Smash-Light if u will! Where exactly do you draw your premium hands line? You getting off Jacks etc., to a reraise? Thanks for the feedback!