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readless, of course.post flop Bettor was very new, and other guy did not stand outPokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)Preflop: HeeezzzBaaacck is MP1 with 9h.gif, jh.gif. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, HeeezzzBaaacck calls, MP2 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, HeeezzzBaaacck calls.Flop: (13 SB) 6c.gif, 8c.gif, td.gif(6 players)BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, HeeezzzBaaacck calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB folds.Turn: (8.50 BB) 2d.gif(4 players)UTG bets, HeeezzzBaaacck calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.River: (11.50 BB) jc.gif(3 players)UTG bets, HeeezzzBaaacck calls....hey, this might be standard,I like to post a lot And it seems therr is always something to disagree on my playhave at it geeks.( not to make another thread, but I raised J9s from UTG when the table was playing tight, I do crazy things like that occasionally )

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hmm could we raise/fold the river?
That does sound sexy...But as the pot size increases, our inclination to raise/fold should decrease. Pot's too big to be pulling that, especially readless.
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How big would the pot have to be on the flop to try to raise to knock out any weak flush draws?
The problem is relative position. We're directly behind the bettor, and raising faces the rest of the field with a double bet (usually making us heads up with the bettor, who has a pair and is ahead most of the time). We don't have the equity to play heads up, so by calling we induce other people to call, putting our equity edge to work. With 3 other people in... we're putting in 25% of the money and we've got somewhere between 30-35% pot equity. With 2 others, we're putting in 33% and we're not far from the "neutral" ballpark, but hopefully we make up for it profiting from implied odds when we hit, and saving bets by folding when we miss.Heads up, though, the split between our fraction of the money going in vs. our pot equity isn't likely to be favorable.Now, if there was a bet and a CALL and it got to us, we should raise for:a) free cardb) fold equityand most importantlyc) value
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You can.If you are ok postflop, you can play more hands. It's more fun.
At these limits, tight is right. Actually, I'm pretty tight LHE player regardless. Rake is money too. I'll have my fun on the button with lots of players. This is the type of hand I like to play in NLHE because of the ability to stack the villian.
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yeah, i play it the same. river is a call/fold of course. only street i consider differently is the flop. seems like we might be able to really help our equity by raising this flop. we may well end up isolating 2 or 3 ways against donks or other draws, and potentially clean up J or 9 outs.

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At these limits, tight is right. Actually, I'm pretty tight LHE player regardless. Rake is money too. I'll have my fun on the button with lots of players. This is the type of hand I like to play in NLHE because of the ability to stack the villian.
This hand, in this situation, is +EV if you can play postflop.
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This hand, in this situation, is +EV if you can play postflop.
It would have to be a pretty soft table and your postflop game would have to be quite strong IMO.Unless I've read wrong this is MP1 position. I consider J9 the very definition of an average hand. If this is playable and +EV then so is another 40% of the hands out there. Is there some benefit to occasionally playing this hand? I think you could make an argument but I have trouble with the +EV statement.If you can pull out your PT stats for J9 in MP1 and show me good numbers then I'm gonna ask if I can rail you.
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It would have to be a pretty soft table and your postflop game would have to be quite strong IMO.Unless I've read wrong this is MP1 position. I consider J9 the very definition of an average hand. If this is playable and +EV then so is another 40% of the hands out there. Is there some benefit to occasionally playing this hand? I think you could make an argument but I have trouble with the +EV statement.If you can pull out your PT stats for J9 in MP1 and show me good numbers then I'm gonna ask if I can rail you.
J9s is a pretty strong drawing hand. what it loses in having the gap, it makes up for by beating other weak flushes, some high card strength, and making hands on stronger boards.we're in early position sure, but there are two limpers in front of us. IMO, if you can't play J9s with two limpers in front of you, you need more confidence in your LHE game, as you're only playing premiums.
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J9s is a pretty strong drawing hand. what it loses in having the gap, it makes up for by beating other weak flushes, some high card strength, and making hands on stronger boards.
I would counter by saying J9s also loses to bigger flushes, bigger straights and loses more often than not when there's a pair.
we're in early position sure, but there are two limpers in front of us. IMO, if you can't play J9s with two limpers in front of you, you need more confidence in your LHE game, as you're only playing premiums.
re: bold, my confidence is fine and my decision to play J9 on a rare occurance is supported by my -EV with that hand. Jen Harman may be able to play almost every hand but I'd say she's in small company and the live aspect plays a role. I don't "only" play premium hands but no doubt most of my LHE game is very TAG. I just want an example of early-midposition limp with that hand with positive results. Even just 100 instances would be something to talk about. Anybody who plays J9 regularly will be able to sort that through PT. Hook me up with a screen shot!
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I would counter by saying J9s also loses to bigger flushes, bigger straights and loses more often than not when there's a pair.re: bold, my confidence is fine and my decision to play J9 on a rare occurance is supported by my -EV with that hand. Jen Harman may be able to play almost every hand but I'd say she's in small company and the live aspect plays a role. I don't "only" play premium hands but no doubt most of my LHE game is very TAG. I just want an example of early-midposition limp with that hand with positive results. Even just 100 instances would be something to talk about. Anybody who plays J9 regularly will be able to sort that through PT. Hook me up with a screen shot!
yeah, i didn't mean to accuse, but you'd certainly play 22 here, right? T9s? 67s? with one limper, we're putting ourself in a marginal situation, but with two limpers, seems like a very easy situation.i actually put in my PT info with J9s, but deleted it, because i didn't think it was relevant. i play on lots of sites, and on the average of the first two, my VPIP with J9s was about 60%, win% about 55%, and i won almost 2bb per hand. apparently i've won 3-4 huge pots with that particular hand, so my stats don't mean much.i will say though that when i went through my stats a while back, nearly all drawing hands showed a profit, however small. though i do occasion to open with connectors, and not exclusively in steal positions, so they may be skewed.
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yeah, i didn't mean to accuse, but you'd certainly play 22 here, right? T9s? 67s? with one limper, we're putting ourself in a marginal situation, but with two limpers, seems like a very easy situation.i actually put in my PT info with J9s, but deleted it, because i didn't think it was relevant. i play on lots of sites, and on the average of the first two, my VPIP with J9s was about 60%, win% about 55%, and i won almost 2bb per hand. apparently i've won 3-4 huge pots with that particular hand, so my stats don't mean much.i will say though that when i went through my stats a while back, nearly all drawing hands showed a profit, however small. though i do occasion to open with connectors, and not exclusively in steal positions, so they may be skewed.
I'm starting to think one of you guys are going to come out and scream YOU GOT GOT! YOU GOT GOT!! YOU GOT GOT!!!
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I will be randomly addressing stuff from this thread:***************Fred, wtf are your stats? 12/12/10?***************We can't play any two, and neither can Jen Harman, or any other LHE player in the world.We can however, play a wide range of hands when there are two limpers in front of us, and even one loose player behind us. If this hand is any indication of the table, then we can play a lot worse than J9s here.***************If you think J9s is -ev after two limpers, you aren't good enough postflop, and obviously should be playing 12/12.Again, I'm assuming you're (not you specifically, Fred) competent postflop, and thus can add numerous hands to what have the makings of a large, multiway pot.***************I have no full ring LHE data on this computer, so I can't provide you with any stats of my own experiences.***************I'll be honest, you (this time yes, specifically you, Fred) seem very weak tight in your recent LHE posts, and I suspect you are passing up potential +EV situations because you are too tight preflop.***************"Tight is right" is wrong. That statement is correct for someone learning LHE, with limited postflop skills and experience. When you get better, and more experienced, you start to play more marginal hands, and push your smaller edges. This is one of those. Since I assume you're conpetent preflop, you should push these edges. Why do you think the top SH LHE players at higher levels have such high VPIPs? It's because they are better than their opponents postflop, and thus, the more hands they play against them, the more opportunity they have to reap the benefits of making fewer postflop mistakes.***************PokerStove Equity Experiment:J9s vs 30% (EP limp) vs 30% (EP limp) vs 40% (LP limp) vs 75% (SB completion) vs Random (BB)

45,696,183  games   124.296 secs   367,640  games/secBoard: Dead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	16.457%	  15.20% 	01.25% 		   6947892 	   572392.33   { J9s }Hand 1: 	18.605%	  17.32% 	01.29% 		   7914036 	   587712.75   { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }Hand 2: 	18.599%	  17.31% 	01.29% 		   7911237 	   587700.58   { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }Hand 3: 	17.322%	  16.12% 	01.20% 		   7365058 	   550574.00   { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }Hand 4: 	14.952%	  14.01% 	00.94% 		   6400952 	   431584.75   { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 83s+, 73s+, 63s+, 52s+, 43s, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J4o+, T6o+, 96o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o }Hand 5: 	14.066%	  13.26% 	00.80% 		   6061044 	   366455.25   { random }

Since it's 6 handed, our breakeven equity is 16.6% Here it's 16.457%, so it's ~break even. However, as I've been harping on, our superior post flop skill will more than make up for our 0.15% equity disadvantage preflop.***************That's all I got.

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I lied. One more:This is a quote from you in the T9 off thread.

I don't mind the call on the BB. Odds baby.
There is a poster, then a raise, and it folds to us in the BB.We're getting 4.5-1 to call here, and you're ok with calling with T9o when we'll be out of position to both players in the hand, but you want to fold J9s when we're going to be at least 4 handed, and will have position on at least 2 of the players?You're being fairly hypocritical.
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I just want an example of early-midposition limp with that hand with positive results. Even just 100 instances would be something to talk about. Anybody who plays J9 regularly will be able to sort that through PT. Hook me up with a screen shot!
Hear hear!I gotta spend some time with that PokerStove thing and get a feel for it. I've never seen it before, and it looks interesting.However:
Since it's 6 handed, our breakeven equity is 16.667% Here it's 16.457%, so it's ~break even. However, as I've been harping on, our superior post flop skill will more than make up for our 0.21% equity disadvantage preflop.
This neglects the effect of the rake...
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