Seriously Starting To Wonder......

[walkabout 0]

First of all.......I have been studying poker for 8 months. I read T.O.P several times. I read LL Hold-em by Lee Jones. I readSSHE by Miller. I read ech one several times till I "got it". I play TAG. I konw which hands to play in which position and whichto raise with. I have no problem folding my SB if I have nothing. I understand and use pot odds. I know how many outs I haveif I have trips and facing a possible flush. I fold KK if there is an A on the flop and someone starts raising. I can read peopleenough that I can usually tell what they have before they turn the cards over.I have been playing in a B&M casino for three months now. I have logged @ 160 hrs of 2-4. In 40 sessions I am currentlydown $1200. I don't go on tilt. If I get upset...I will walk around but I don't change my game. I just get frustrated when thedonks call a raise from MP with 5/9 os and hit a straight. Over and over and over. I have sat at a table for over 1 1/2 hoursseveral times and not got a hand to play. I see donks sit down and play anything and have the deck hit them square in thehead. They walk away up over $100. I ask myself........when is MY turn? I have come to the conclusion that either 1) LLHEcan't be beaten or 2) I am having one hell of a bad streak. I want to move up to 3/6 and 4/8 but I wanted to prove myselfat 2/4 first. Sorry folks.......I am just really frustrated.

[Zach6668 513]

Honestly, you are speaking as if you don't understand what you are reading when you read TOP.If you understood poker, you wouldn't be making this post.First of all, you should understand that 2/4 live is probably unbeatable due to the rake structure.Secondly, 1 and a half hours at a live game is like 45 hands, at the most, that is a normal stretch of not having a playable hand.I'm sorry, I can't sympathize with you. Everything in your post exemplified normal 2/4 live circumstances.You need to understand poker is a longterm game, some donk coming in and winning $100 in an hour means nothing.

[NocturnalRob 0]

No offense, but a lot of your first paragraph made me laugh. Actually, a lot of your second paragraph made me laugh too. But from sadness.Poker's not something you can pick up in 8 months. And it's definitely not something you're going to learn by reading books until you've "got it" (which you clearly don't). And it's DEFINITELY not something you're going to learn by playing 2/4 limit. If it's actually true that you've logged 160 hours at 2/4, then I know what your problem is--you've slowly been driven insane.Either move up in limits or move over to NL. It sounds like you have the right mentality, although I would rethink some of the strategies that you hold as truths in the first paragraph. As you play more, you'll play better more often.

[antistuff 0]

Either move up in limits

you might be on to something. -----------------------to the op - maybe you just arent a winner at poker? very few people are. you've lost 300 big bets. if you are a winner the chances of that happening are pretty slim.

[litlebullet 0]

you might be on to something. -----------------------to the op - maybe you just arent a winner at poker? very few people are. you've lost 300 big bets. if you are a winner the chances of that happening are pretty slim.

never give up there's no such thing as not being a winner at poker if you try hard enough. Ok I sorta know a limit grinder that has been grinding for years and he's recently hit the roll for 40/80. The funny thing is that he said the players got a whole lot easier once he hit the higher limits. He's a pretty big success story at the AP forums here's one of his threads from earlier this year when he was grinding 5/10 http://forum.absolutepoker.com/index.php?showtopic=4707here's one from two weeks ago. http://forum.absolutepoker.com/index.php?showtopic=6570Maybe this guy's threads can improve your game gl. I'm not sure what he said but it's something along the lines that most players without a rakeback system just can't beat the rake in anything less than 5/10.

[antistuff 0]

never give up there's no such thing as not being a winner at poker if you try hard enough. Ok I sorta know a limit grinder that has been grinding for years and he's recently hit the roll for 40/80. The funny thing is that he said the players got a whole lot easier once he hit the higher limits. He's a pretty big success story at the AP forums here's one of his threads from earlier this year when he was grinding 5/10 http://forum.absolutepoker.com/index.php?showtopic=4707here's one from two weeks ago. http://forum.absolutepoker.com/index.php?showtopic=6570Maybe this guy's threads can improve your game gl. I'm not sure what he said but it's something along the lines that most players without a rakeback system just can't beat the rake in anything less than 5/10.

i think this is an irresponsible thing to say. this guy lost $1,200 at 2/4 and you're encouraging him? if he had 160 hours to spend playing that game then thats probably a lot of money to him. because some guy ran well for a year doesn't mean that everybody can win if they try. somebody always loses, where do you think the money the winners win comes from?

[litlebullet 0]

i think this is an irresponsible thing to say. this guy lost $1,200 at 2/4 and you're encouraging him? if he had 160 hours to spend playing that game then thats probably a lot of money to him. because some guy ran well for a year doesn't mean that everybody can win if they try. somebody always loses, where do you think the money the winners win comes from?

hmph I see where you're getting at but 160 hours is nothing. 3 months ago I've started playing probably 40-50 hours a week 4-tabling 1 dollar stt's (20% rake) and when I moved up to take a shot at 5's a month ago I ran into a cold deck, got killed, dropped back down. I'm trying the 5's again. Most people bust multiple times before they begin winning. If he just gives up because everyone tells him he sucks then he'll always be a losing player. This guy in my above posts didn't just run good for a year either, he's the real deal. He can turn almost any player into a winning limit player.

[Zach6668 513]

lol, you are friends with GCP?******************antistuff,While it's not clear whether this player would be a winner otherwise, the rake is a HUGE factor at this stake, fyi. It's VERY difficult to beat a live 2/4 game, which rakes, presumably 10% up to $5.

[rgold79 0]

First of all, you should understand that 2/4 live is probably unbeatable due to the rake structure.

Not really relevant in light of...

you've lost 300 big bets. if you are a winner the chances of that happening are pretty slim.

OP is a live one, sorry to say. Switch to online where you can play a higher volume and improve quickly. I suppose if you have money from some other source you could try playing your style at a higher limit, but in all likelihood you'll get crushed there, too. Look, if you enjoy the game, keep playing and trying to learn, but right now you must come to terms with the fact that you're a losing player. (And again, nothing wrong with admitting that.)

[walkabout 0]

Thanks for your responses. The B&M that I play at has a 10% to $4 PLUS a $2 jackpot (add in $1 for toke) Thats $7 on a $40 pot. But they do give backon alot of promotions.My understanding is that limit is ABC poker. You can only check/bet/raise or fold. You can't adjust your bet size to makesomeone make a mistake by calling. While position and read have some importance......your cards and making the correctdecisions based your pot odds are primary. You are going to a showdown 90% of the time and usually with 3 or more.I play the game exactly the way Jones and Miller teach. When I sit at a table, it is painfully obvious the mistakes other playersmake. They never c/r, they don't know to get a free card when they are on a draw, they see 3 out of 5 flops, they call to theriver with a 9-4 suited on a flush draw. Yet I can't seem to get the money. Maybe it will even out in the long run. For nowI am either running card dead or getting sucked out on. I think I will try to move up to get away from the tourist.I started playing online with play chips. Ran 10k to over 500k playing SNGs. Then I put $150 cash in and lost $20 in smallSNGs. Switched to .25/.50 limit and ran it up to $205 in @20 hrs of play. (+75). I dont think I will get my deposit bonus because at .25/.50 the rake isn't enough to get me points. So I am going to sign up through a rakeback site.Thanks to Litlebullet....that GCP is an interesting read. I know my play needs some fine tuning. But I dont give up. Some ofthe people forget that they were once beginners and didn't quit when they had a bad run. Hope to see you on a table over onAP.

[rgold79 0]

Thanks for your responses. The B&M that I play at has a 10% to $4 PLUS a $2 jackpot (add in $1 for toke) Thats $7 on a $40 pot. But they do give backon alot of promotions.I started playing online with play chips. Ran 10k to over 500k playing SNGs. Then I put $150 cash in and lost $20 in smallSNGs. Switched to .25/.50 limit and ran it up to $205 in @20 hrs of play. (+75). I dont think I will get my deposit bonus because at .25/.50 the rake isn't enough to get me points. So I am going to sign up through a rakeback site.Thanks to Litlebullet....that GCP is an interesting read. I know my play needs some fine tuning. But I dont give up. Some ofthe people forget that they were once beginners and didn't quit when they had a bad run. Hope to see you on a table over onAP.

That rake structure will kill you over the long term.Comparing play chips to money really just doesn't work most of the time. Although I definitely think it can help you learn the game at a basic level if you take the right approach.How many SNG's did you play? Playing micro STT's is a good way to ease into real money play. Have you tried any NLHE cash games? You might find more success playing micro cash online. Or maybe try 1/2NL at your B&M.Nobody is forgetting what it was like to be a beginner, and when people take the time to respond to your posts and tell you that a 300bb downswing is a sign your game needs work, they are just being honest with you. I hope you don't take it as being callous because I don't really think that's anyone's intention. But when you find yourself having that much of a negative swing, and when you find yourself complaining about how you can't beat loose and reckless opponents (Hint: these are EXACTLY the kinds of players that pad winning players' profit margins), then it is easy to see that you have ground to make up in your education.Keep playing with as wise bankroll management as you can, keep coming to the strat forums and posting hands for feedback, and very soon you'll see your game start to improve.

[walkabout 0]

I do appreciate you all taking the time to respond. I do not take the responses personally. I posted here because I knowalmost all of you from the general forum and acknowledge your experience and advice. I have no doubt that my game hasroom for improvement and I intend to keep working on it. I guess I just "assumed" that studying Miller and Lee that it would put me ahead of 90% of most limit players and I could grind out some $$. Thanks again

[CoranMoran 0]

Wow, you guys are tough.OP,Post some specific hands so we can locate your deficiencies.That is one of the better ways to learn.--CM

[Frez 0]

You are probably on the right path walkabout - it is entirely possible to have bankroll swings like that in the limitted number of hands you've got in the cardroom. However, $7 from a $40 pot. OUCH. I'm positive it's impossible to show a profit at that.Keep at it!

[Zach6668 513]

160 hours is roughly equivalent to 4800 hands...For one, that's not nearly enough to make any assumptions about overall winrate, but losing 300 BB over that many hands will be quite rare for a winning player.Say, avg rake/jackpot/toke is $5/pot, and we win 2-3 pots/hour, you're starting in the whole maybe 5 BB/HOUR! (Crude assumptions), but it makes a 300 BB downswing much more likely.Like CM said though, post specific hands.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

it's even better to go and randomly read several dozen threads and make your suggestions before reading other opinions.Does pride get in the way?I swear this way really works

[Zach6668 513]

I swear this way really works

I can vouch for this as well.

[RISEorFall 0]

160 hours is roughly equivalent to 4800 hands...For one, that's not nearly enough to make any assumptions about overall winrate, but losing 300 BB over that many hands will be quite rare for a winning player.

it took me about 10k hands to show a positive winrate at 3/6 online. but it never dropped to 300 BB. I think maybe 150 max. but at the same time i was averaging over 4BB/100 playing 2/4to the OP: one, limit hold em can be beaten. I started with about $100 last summer and my BR now is over 5k. i had a nice NL tourney win but over 3k of that was building a roll starting from .15/.30 limit two, as they've been saying the rake is helping to kill you at the live casino. especially the jackpot rake. get an online account. and three, don't try and move up until you've shown some kind of success at your current limit. start with the basics, dont try to get way ahead of yourself before youre ready, and use proper bankroll management. if you can't atleast come close to break even at 2/4, 3/6 and 4/8 wont be any better. oh and four, 5k hands or so is nothing. like I said earlier i was in the negative at 3/6 until about 10k hands or so, but overall i've been a winning player.

[Frez 0]

There's another way to look at this. 160 hours, 300 BBs down = -1.875 BB/hr. Obviously not winning, but neither is it -5. One thing I've found is it's too easy to get caught up in the advanced material in books like Theory of Poker. Save that for when you're playing 20/40 in Vegas. Small Stakes Hold'em is probably the best for low limit live.It also bears pointing out that $7 rake on a $40 2/4 pot = -1.75 BB. Ouch. Those better be some damn good promotions.

[walkabout 0]

Thanks again guys. You have been very helpful.Frez.....those promo's are so good that, even though I am down $1,200 in actual play.....I am UP $1.000 for 2 months.I think I found one of my leaks. We have to play a certain # of hours to quailfy. I usually quit at the end of the hours even if I am down $40. If I stayed till I won 1 more pot...I would be even for that session.After reading all the threads here, I see that I still have alot to learn. For example....In RISEorfall's thread regarding pocket9's. What I get from SSHE is that pocket 9's is a marginal hand and it's value is in making a set on the flop. That you want tosee the flop as cheap as possible and with lots of company. You all seem to agree that 3 betting them PF is standard. I seethat as driving out other players. Then a K came on a flop that was bet/raised/ re-raised.....I'm scared of that K. I would bet the flop for info but wouldn't call a raise. Am I playing too tight?Lastly, can anyone suggest another LHE book for me? I have read TOP/LLHE....Jones/ SSHE...Miller. Also Harrington on HE 1and PTF....Snyder.

[RISEorFall 0]

RISEorfall's thread regarding pocket9's. What I get from SSHE is that pocket 9's is a marginal hand and it's value is in making a set on the flop. That you want tosee the flop as cheap as possible and with lots of company. You all seem to agree that 3 betting them PF is standard. I seethat as driving out other players. Then a K came on a flop that was bet/raised/ re-raised.....I'm scared of that K. I would bet the flop for info but wouldn't call a raise. Am I playing too tight?Lastly, can anyone suggest another LHE book for me? I have read TOP/LLHE....Jones/ SSHE...Miller. Also Harrington on HE 1and PTF....Snyder.

forget Jones and Snyder (wait, is this the guy with the tournament book everyone keeps talking about?)also, forget Harrington's book in terms of limit hold em. It's way more for NL and specifically for tournaments. dont worry about TOP while youre playing lower limits, SSHE is pretty much all you really need.also, in the 99 thread, the flop wasn't raise and reraised. if it was, that's an easy fold. he checked, i bet, he called. the debate is on the turn play. 3-betting 99 preflop is standard in most cases because you'r trying to isolate a single opponent when your hand is probably better than his. If he has AK or AQ. we can get him heads up with some dead blind money in the pot being a slight favorite (or a bigger favorite if he doesnt chase overcards to the river). if he has TT or JJ hopefully we can get some fold equity on him when overcards fall and we bet.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, poker isn't going to be one of those things you just get after reading a few threads, etc, and it does appear that you realize that. I would recommend making sure you understand SSHE inside and out, and read these forums every day, post your own hands, reply to other hands with ALL questions you have, no matter how easy you think they'll be to the rest of us. If you're lucky, someone will take the time to explain exactly why we do what we do, etc. The key to learning poker isn't trying to remember what to do in certain situations, like to 3-bet 99 preflop, the key to learning is to figure out exactly WHY we do things, why we're 3-betting 99 preflop. You're off to a good start asking questions about the 99 hand, but while you're reading posts, go ahead and ask any questions you have in that thread, etcI've been doing this on the forums for almost 2 years and I still have a million questions.Cheers, and good luck.- Zach

[fleung22 1]

OP, personally I rarely play live LHE unless it's $10/20 but at the very LEAST $5/10. However, I am in no way suggesting you move up in limits.I HIGHLY suggest playing online. You can choose as small a limit as you want (I started at .01/.02). When you can start playing multiple tables and increase your overall EV then you know that you're making decisions fast enough so that it's second nature.I honestly don't know if I could've ever gained the disclipline to play winning LHE from playing strictly live. When you're cold and folding for an hour an ATs looks like gold. Even now I have to open 4-6 tables just so I don't get bored. Seeing the same hands at a faster pace will build the correlation between winning and losing hands much quicker. Tools such as Poker Tracker only enhance this....and to the person who said "anyone" can learn. I completely disagree. There will always be lifetime losers at this game.

[Frez 0]

Thanks again guys. You have been very helpful.Frez.....those promo's are so good that, even though I am down $1,200 in actual play.....I am UP $1.000 for 2 months.I think I found one of my leaks. We have to play a certain # of hours to quailfy. I usually quit at the end of the hours even if I am down $40. If I stayed till I won 1 more pot...I would be even for that session.Lastly, can anyone suggest another LHE book for me? I have read TOP/LLHE....Jones/ SSHE...Miller. Also Harrington on HE 1and PTF....Snyder.

Careful with that hanging around for one more pot theory - that usually costs me money.I've read all Harringtons books - they're great, but almost totally irrelevant for LHE.Try Ken Warren teaches Texas Held'em. If you actually do the exercises he tells you to do at the end of each chapter, and think about the results, you'll learn a lot.

[RISEorFall 0]

Try Ken Warren teaches Texas Held'em. If you actually do the exercises he tells you to do at the end of each chapter, and think about the results, you'll learn a lot.

forget Ken Warren. stick to SSHE. and the forums. seriously. oh, and fleung, very few decisions are automatic. if youre making all or most of all your decisions automatically, you're losing out on lots of EV