Ajax in trouble

[Verdimme 0]

Table is loose passive. Usually 3/4 to the flop.Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is MP1 with [Jc], [As]. 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.Easy raise for value i think.Flop: (8 SB) [2h], [7s], [Ts] (4 players)SB checks, BB bets, MP3 folds, SB folds, BB calls.Im probably behind, but since the pot is large im raising to knock the others out. If i dont improve on the turn im taking a free card.Turn: (6 BB) [8h] (2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.Anyone betting?River: (6 BB) [Ah] (2 players)BB bets, Hero calls.Nobody is folding to his 3-bet right?Final Pot: 12 BB

[screech 0]

Stop raising the flop with just overcards unless the flop bettor is a habitual bluffer. Would you raise other weak draws in this situation?Usually just call the flop, and fold the turn UI.If I had raised the flop, I'm betting that turn.River just goes to show how weak overcard draws really are. Ax hands are all too common, so you may hit and still lose to 2 pair.

[Actuary 3]

Screech,we have a bdfd !Pot is bigOur pos is great.We really want to fold Ax / Qx / Kx Do you want a gutshot at least to raise here?I do think we raise to freely here, but I'm ok with this one.Is it really bad?I'd bet the turn almost always.Unless BB can't fold a weak handRiver, I need reads, but I don't raise in the first place.

[Briguy 0]

I don't see what's wrong with the flop raise, for the reasons listed by Actuary (against a passive opponent, or at a generally passive table).Don't bet the turn against no-foldem types, or against reasonable players. Do bet it against mice and other high W%SD types. Just call the river.

[screech 0]

Screech,we have a bdfd !Pot is bigOur pos is great.We really want to fold Ax / Qx / Kx Do you want a gutshot at least to raise here?I do think we raise to freely here, but I'm ok with this one.Is it really bad?

Why are you trying to fold these hands when you are drawing to ~ 5 outs?Are you working in collusion with the flop bettor?We beat most Ax hands, so we don't have to clean up outs. Kx hands we don't have to worry about becuase we're not ahead. The board would have to come K-J for this to be a concern.And yes we have a bd flush, I would like to see if we pick up the fd on the turn cheaply.IMO this is a flop call, and it's not really that close.

[Actuary 3]

Screech,I would also like to foldGutshots7x2xweak fd's (ok, I'm hoping)we have a 4 way raised pot.That's big.I don't want to lose a 13BB pot because I left 7Q hit.but like I sadi before.I get really lucky when I play.It's obvious I can't think clearly while "at work"

[CoranMoran 0]

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with [Jc], [As]. 3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls. Easy raise for value i think.

Of course

Flop: (8 SB) [2h], [7s], [Ts] (4 players) SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, SB folds, BB calls. Im probably behind, but since the pot is large im raising to knock the others out. If i dont improve on the turn im taking a free card.

The majority of the time, I raise this as well.If you just call the flop, you are forced to fold the turn UI.

Stop raising the flop with just overcards unless the flop bettor is a habitual bluffer.

We beat most Ax hands, so we don't have to clean up outs.

What about A7 & A2?Facing these hands with calling two bets puts a tough decision on them.They must assume that it is they who are drawing to 5 outs.

Turn: (6 BB) [8h] (2 players) BB checks, Hero checks. Anyone betting?

This play depends on your opponent.If more than one had called the flop, I usually check down this turn.If my table image is LAG, I usually check down this turn If my opponent is a loose caller or capable of setting up a check-raise here, I check down this turn.If I am going to bet this turn, I usually also bet the river regardless of what hits.

River: (6 BB) [Ah] (2 players) BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls. Nobody is folding to his 3-bet right?

You've come too far to fold now.

River, I need reads, but I don't raise in the first place.

Interesting idea.I have always raised this river out of habit.I feel "I actually got there!" and then assume raising is the obvious thing to do. But I'm starting to think that calling down is best.Win 1, Lose 2, right?So if I haven't targeted this player as someone to always value bet, I agree with the river call rather than the raise.--cm

[Actuary 3]

CM,yeah,again the action may be biasing me.but everyone knows I'm passive, so it's believable I just call the river.I wrestle with the idea often 'here's one of my outs, so, why not raise?" Again, the out might be worth chasing for the size of the pot, doesn'r mean we are good 50-66% of the time it hits, even.like you say 1 for 2

[screech 0]

The majority of the time, I raise this as well. If you just call the flop, you are forced to fold the turn UI.

I don't get it. What's the problem with folding the turn UI?Why are you raising the flop? So you can call the turn?To give you FE?Because you think you have the best hand?Please tell me. Everyone is saying raise the flop. I can't think of one good reason to do so. Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't heard one good reason as to why raising this flop is good.

[screech 0]

Screech,I would also like to foldGutshots7x2xweak fd's (ok, I'm hoping)we have a 4 way raised pot.That's big.I don't want to lose a 13BB pot because I left 7Q hit.but like I sadi before.I get really lucky when I play.It's obvious I can't think clearly while "at work"

For these gutshots and other weak hands to hurt you, you specifically have to improve on the turn, and they then have to outdraw you on teh river. The only 7x and 2x hands that you would like to fold are the ones that share your kicker. But you have to ask yourself how likely your opponents are to have these specific hands, and how likely you are to fold them.When you factor it all together, it's just not enough. The odds of you folding out that one hand that would have outdrawn you when you improve on the river are somewhat remote. When there is 0 chance that you currently have the best hand, and when you are drawing to a weak hand such as overcards, this play really isn't working. I think it's a pretty big leak (because of frequency) that is costing most people here a good chunk of money.

[Guest Zach6668]

The majority of the time, I raise this as well. If you just call the flop, you are forced to fold the turn UI.

I don't get it. What's the problem with folding the turn UI?Why are you raising the flop? So you can call the turn?To give you FE?Because you think you have the best hand?Please tell me. Everyone is saying raise the flop. I can't think of one good reason to do so. Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't heard one good reason as to why raising this flop is good.

I think the best reason for raising this flop is for a free card. We have two overs, and two back door draws, both to the nuts, and if we aren't three-bet, then we know our overs are clean. Not only that, but if the villain flopped a monster, I think the odds are that they would be going for a c/r, or waiting for the turn to raise here, so I think we have at least 6 clean outs, plus our backdoor flush draw to the nuts, and our bd straight draw.Against the right opponent, which is key, we will almost always get a free card, thus meaning we are paying 2 SB to see the river. I can't figure out the math, but does our hand improve enough to justify the raise, as we see two cards instead of just one?Zach

[Guest Zach6668]

I must also add metagame purposes as well. Playing weak like that after looking so strong preflop all of the time will be noticed by the other players. Also, I have seen players who will donk bet these flops thinking you will fold your missed overs, or at least will be able to get you to fold on the turn.Zach

[screech 0]

I think the best reason for raising this flop is for a free card. We have two overs, and two back door draws, both to the nuts, and if we aren't three-bet, then we know our overs are clean.

He's not last to act, so he can't assure himself a free card. Plus he may get 3-bet/donked on the turn. This sucks, and must be accounted for. Our bd straight draw is worthless. We have to hit 2 perfect cards. It's worth ~ 0.1 outs.How can we be sure our overcards are clean if we aren't 3-bet. I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Our bd flush is worth ~ 1.5 outs, and our overcards are worth 3.5 outs at best. That's a total of 5 outs. Weak.So, would you raise a typical 5 out draw to set up the possibility of a free turn card in this spot? Probably not. Too much can go wrong to make it profitable.

Not only that, but if the villain flopped a monster, I think the odds are that they would be going for a c/r, or waiting for the turn to raise here, so I think we have at least 6 clean outs, plus our backdoor flush draw to the nuts, and our bd straight draw.

You are way too optimistic.

Against the right opponent, which is key, we will almost always get a free card, thus meaning we are paying 2 SB to see the river. I can't figure out the math, but does our hand improve enough

to justify the raise, as we see two cards instead of just one? If we were gaurunteed 5 clean outs and could see the river card every time for just the cost of the raise - yes.

[Guest Zach6668]

Ok, I didn't see that he wasn't last to act.What about the chance that we are cleaning up some outs here as well then?EDIT - btw... if my ramblings don't make sense, it's because I'm also 3-tabling to clear my bonus.. I have 45 minutes left...lol

[screech 0]

Ok, I didn't see that he wasn't last to act.What about the chance that we are cleaning up some outs here as well then?EDIT - btw... if my ramblings don't make sense, it's because I'm also 3-tabling to clear my bonus.. I have 45 minutes left...lol

Cleaning up outs is a legit reason to raise.I don't think it works that often here for a few reasons:1) how likely are our opponents to have J7 or J2? And if they would play these hands pf, how likley are they to fold them postflop?2) A2 we have a shot at folding. A7 is remote. Also, the chance that one of our opponents has precisely these cards is fairly remote.

[Actuary 3]

Screech:SSHE pg 231-232.we don't know what kind of player BB is; but we can fall back on the default: big pots, you should tend to raise, especially in that pos, to face the field with 2. It talks about fodlnig hands like A7 here.to say raising this is a major leak is proposterous.

[screech 0]

Screech:SSHE pg 231-232.we don't know what kind of player BB is; but we can fall back on the default: big pots, you should tend to raise, especially in that pos, to face the field with 2. It talks about fodlnig hands like A7 here.to say raising this is a major leak is proposterous.

I don't have SSHE with me, but I'm pretty sure it never recommends raising flops with weak draws.And it is a pretty big leak because we are faced with that exact situation fairly frequently.Oh yeah, and using the word proposterous is preposterous.

[jayboogie 0]

The raise is pretty bad in this situation, not so much in a HU situation. The raise, check, check/call line is pretty good in HU situations against certain opponents when you have Ace High, but not here. It's important to note theres 4 players in this pot and the BB bets into you, typically he's paired up or has a strong draw, both of which make you hate your hand.I'd just peel here on this flop with some backdoor draws and overs. Raising really does nothing for you in this situation, anybody with a pair on this board is definitely calling you and I don't see any reason why you'd believe a raise buys you a free card. Even if it buys you a free card, what are you really drawing to? Most of you are justifying the raise by saying you get a free card, but what good is a free card when you have nothing at this point?I'd think your behind on this flop here 99% of the time, I just don't see the justification for throwing money in when your almost surely beat.

[Actuary 3]

I don't have SSHE with me, but I'm pretty sure it never recommends raising flops with weak draws.****Oh yeah, and using the word proposterous is preposterous.

we have A Q we are BB, 2 limpers and SB, we raise preflop, they call. 8 SB.Flop9 4 3 SB, (a thinking/aggressive player who bets draws) leads out.You should raise.if SB was known to be really passive, and you had no BDFD, folding makes more sense, even in a big potI suck at spelling.

[screech 0]

SB, (a thinking/aggressive player who bets draws) leads out.

There is a huge difference in this example and OPs hand.I've already said that you should raise if you thought there was a decent chance of being ahead of the pf bettor.

[Guest Zach6668]

I don't have SSHE with me, but I'm pretty sure it never recommends raising flops with weak draws.****Oh yeah, and using the word proposterous is preposterous.

we have A Q we are BB, 2 limpers and SB, we raise preflop, they call. 8 SB.Flop9 4 3 SB, (a thinking/aggressive player who bets draws) leads out.You should raise.if SB was known to be really passive, and you had no BDFD, folding makes more sense, even in a big potI suck at spelling.

Yeah ok. I like this raise a lot more than the one in the OP. In this case, there are some more draws that should be betting out. The flop in the first case is pretty dry, with the exception of 89 for the OESD. In this case we are raising for value, presumably, thinking we have the better hand a majority of the time.I can see why raising the OP's flop is not necessarily the same.I guess in the OP it depends on reads. It is 2/4, so you won't see as many ridiculous cold calls are you would in say .5/1, etc, so facing the feild with 2 cold should fold a number of hands, and generally will get you a free card, in the sense that the opponents are passive.Of course, we do have a weak draw, only drawing to overs, and a BDFD, so it is probably pretty close. Sometimes we still have the best hand here, especially if we fold the hands behind us, some of which could be better hands than ours.

[Actuary 3]

SB, (a thinking/aggressive player who bets draws) leads out.

There is a huge difference in this example and OPs hand.I've already said that you should raise if you thought there was a decent chance of being ahead of the pf bettor.

maybe this line stood out and i can't find where you said raise if theres a chance you are ahead...

Please tell me. Everyone is saying raise the flop. I can't think of one good reason to do so. Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't heard one good reason as to why raising this flop is good

so i'm trying to give reasons.Big Pot is main reason.I'm really surprised at you here.At 2/4 this bet out could be anything.

[Guest Zach6668]

I'm really surprised at you here.At 2/4 this bet out could be anything.

Absolutely anything, is right. Like I said above, we do have the best hand here sometimes.

[screech 0]

Stop raising the flop with just overcards unless the flop bettor is a habitual bluffer

.By chance, I mean a decent chance. At least 25%. Habitual bluffer is a bit much, but I was trying to get a point across.OP said the table was loose-passive. Generally, loose-passives aren't bluffing/semi-bluffing at this pot into the pf raiser and 3 other opponents in the hand. Even terrible LAGs know not to do that.Plus the fact that the table is loose/passive means your raise is more likely to get called by a raggedy pair anyway.

[Actuary 3]

Screech,I respect you, so I won't badger you anymore.You can have the last word here.I think playing 5/10 has effected your micro analysis somewhatYou should read that page in SSHE, 231-232It doesn't say they have ot be bluffing donkies.and off course it assumes loose/passive other players.I can't mathematically prove any of this. I had trouble always believing SSHE's assertion that we imporve our winnig chances enough in these spots, since i looked at it as well "what are the chances the perfect combo hits and w win, but they out draw us..." I enjoy our spirited battles.Sometimes it's obvious we both *know* we are right.