question about a hand

[Leet8s 0]

Before I post, I want to say that Carlie has been showing down pots with not that great of hands and has been raising lots of pots.***** Hand History for Game 3000188737 *****$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, November 07, 23:17:11 EDT 2005Table Table 74189 (No DP) (Real Money)Seat 2 is the buttonTotal number of players : 4 Seat 7: Leet8s ( $137.85 )Seat 2: beallard ( $144.10 )Seat 4: carlie_s ( $188.80 )Seat 1: aly0123 ( $0 )carlie_s posts small blind [$0.50].Leet8s posts big blind [$1].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Leet8s [ Kd Ah ]beallard folds.aly0123 has left the table.carlie_s raises [$1.50].Leet8s raises [$6].carlie_s calls [$5].** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, As, Kc ]carlie_s bets [$7].Leet8s calls [$7].** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]carlie_s bets [$12].Leet8s raises [$36].carlie_s raises [$63].Leet8s is all-In [$87.85]carlie_s calls [$48.85].** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]carlie_s shows [ Jh, Td ] a straight, ten to ace.Leet8s doesn't show [ Kd, Ah ] two pairs, aces and kings.carlie_s wins $274.70 from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.Do you guys think I played the hand wrong? It was three handed, and his small raise preflop and him calling my reraise signified maybe A-low kicker. Him betting the flop looked like he hit aces, possibly Aces and 7s . The turn induced another bet, defintely making me think he had two pair. Did I do anything wrong?

[CaneBrain 95]

his flop bet was an unorthodox play.I can see how that would be confusing.I still would have raised the flop though. If you think he hit an ace and has something like AQ or A7 then thats a spot to raise right away. but I cant fault you for going broke here either. he made an odd flop bet (a creative play) and then hit his 4 outer on the turn. happens.

[DaBruins 0]

tough hand. I dont mind your small trap play on the flop if you say he is an agressive bettor who usually takes leads. What was your image at the table? Would he take the lead again on the turn against you even if you were shown to be a tight player? Anyway, once that turn hits i probably read him more for Aces up (A7, AQ) then a set or a straight - i would figure with a set he would likely check raise since its pretty easy for you to have a big hand and bet the flop - of course its also hard to put him on J10. Being a cash game, i call the last bet and live with the results one way or the other. But after he re-raised you on the turn i would definitely slow down; maniac or not thats an extremely hard play to make without a premium hand in that spot.

[PFunk 0]

Other then not raising on the flop, I dont think you played this that wrong, though you could have minimized your loss if you were indeed beat. I personally hate two pair (in some sense of the word hate), its a hard hand to trust and I proceed cautiously unless something is telling me other wise.Hard hand to get away from here I guess, considering your opponent was probably just a lucky idio.t.P.

[gerrety 0]

I would have raised the flop bet.

[AgroPoker 0]

I raise the flopHis bet may have been for info, if you have a smaller pair than AK he may win right thereif you raise 3/4 pot you take it down know (with his holding)but if he has a weak A and is how u discribe you may get a loose call.I know you have a big hand and want action, but I just don't like giveing free cards with two broadway on the board.just my thoughts (and i myself have alot to learn)so if this is wrong please let me know

[Davin 0]

nothing wrong w/ smoothcalling that flopyou're well ahead of 90% of his possible holdings and you have position. let him do the betting for you. make him make the tough decisions oop. now, he's probably thinking "he just called. does that mean he has an ace? what about a king? what about lower pp? or does he have a set?" by confusing your opponent, you force him into tough decisions, like whether or not to bet the turn. bc of this, he will make more mistakes and this allows you to maximize your hand valueif he didnt hit his 4 outter on the turn. who knows, you might have picked up a nice sized bluff bet from him (as opposed to only the money he put in the pot pf and on the flop)scared money never makes money

[pmc 0]

when he bet the flop, the first thing in my mind was a very big raise or all in. u only have a little over 100 bucks in front of u. i totally disagree with a smooth call. i been a winning player for quite some time so i feel i can talk boldly here. a smooth call is only good if u have a very strong hand. a hand that figures to still be good even if yur opponent improves on the river. top 2 pair ace king is a great flop but it can be beat. his bet on the flop was excellent but smallish to try and break u off a hand like pocket qq or jj. even if i had an underpair to the flop, i would have called his half the pot bet wich looked weak and see if i can catch a set on the turn and also see if he slows down on the turn and checks to u since u have position on him. if he bets again on the turn and i dont improve, then i'll muck. if he has a set on the flop and u got top 2 pair, what r u going to do? yur going to play for all yur chips any way. what r u going to do? fold top 2? if yur going to fold top 2, u better go find another hobby. play yur hand according to yur strength. fancy plays cost u money in the long run. if u dont believe me, then go ask mike caro. heres how i would play that hand. he bets 7 on the flop, i would raise him 50 bucks or go all in espeacially since u said that he shows down with not the greatest hands. force him to play a big pot drawing to bad pot odds. he would be getting bad odds even if u raised him a pot size bet but lets face it, yur playing for small money to begin with and a pot size raise might not scare him because its only a tank full of gas yur raising him. now, u raise him big like 50 or all in, that might make him think. remember, theres a lot of idiots out there. if he's smart enough to fold, then u take down a smallish pot but at least u win. hold em is always about the long run and in no limit cash games u really have to capatalize when u have an edge espeacially against a sucker. remeber, dont get greedy with the fancy plays, u wont make as much money in the long run.

[Davin 0]

when he bet the flop, the first thing in my mind was a very big raise or all in. u only have a little over 100 bucks in front of u. i totally disagree with a smooth call. i been a winning player for quite some time so i feel i can talk boldly here. a smooth call is only good if u have a very strong hand. a hand that figures to still be good even if yur opponent improves on the river. top 2 pair ace king is a great flop but it can be beat. his bet on the flop was excellent but smallish to try and break u off a hand like pocket qq or jj. even if i had an underpair to the flop, i would have called his half the pot bet wich looked weak and see if i can catch a set on the turn and also see if he slows down on the turn and checks to u since u have position on him. if he bets again on the turn and i dont improve, then i'll muck. if he has a set on the flop and u got top 2 pair, what r u going to do? yur going to play for all yur chips any way. what r u going to do? fold top 2? if yur going to fold top 2, u better go find another hobby. play yur hand according to yur strength. fancy plays cost u money in the long run. if u dont believe me, then go ask mike caro. heres how i would play that hand. he bets 7 on the flop, i would raise him 50 bucks or go all in espeacially since u said that he shows down with not the greatest hands. force him to play a big pot drawing to bad pot odds. he would be getting bad odds even if u raised him a pot size bet but lets face it, yur playing for small money to begin with and a pot size raise might not scare him because its only a tank full of gas yur raising him. now, u raise him big like 50 or all in, that might make him think. remember, theres a lot of idiots out there. if he's smart enough to fold, then u take down a smallish pot but at least u win. hold em is always about the long run and in no limit cash games u really have to capatalize when u have an edge espeacially against a sucker. remeber, dont get greedy with the fancy plays, u wont make as much money in the long run.

i completely disagree w/ your lineyou're playing scared of getting sucked outplaying scared wont make much money in the long runwe know that we're either way ahead or way behind. if we're way behind, we'll, we'd lose all our money anyways regardless of whether the money goes in on the flop or on the turnif we're way ahead, we have position, and we can allow sb to either improve to a worse hand (say two pairing aq or aj) or we can allow sb to stab again on the turn and charge him there to draw. i hate going all in on the flop. it shows complete fear and lack of post flop play. sure, i can see where a raise would fit in, but to 50 or 100? that's just playing scared. the 12/13 (or possibly 24/25) times he doesnt improve (or improves to a worse hand), we can extract money if he decides to stab again (which is a good possibility bc of our weakness on the flop)that 1/13 or 1/25 time that he does suck out, well, that sucks for us. but it doesnt validate playing scaredim sure you're a winning player as you claim, but let's just agree to disagree on this one

[pmc 0]

well, the smooth call got him broke right? davin, i dont know who u r, i dont know what kind of player u r. yur from mit i notice and that gives me some indications. yur a smart guy, maybe too smart for poker. i played with u technical types for years. no doubt, yur absolutely right that when yur the favorite, u should invite action from a draw, BUT NOT WITH A SMOOTH CALL. raise just enough so that if he calls, he's getting the wrong odds to do so. so lets see, a pot size raise of 25 dollars should do the trick. but lets see, this is the kiddie small no limit game. the sucker says to himself, "what the hell, its 25 bucks more to me, i make that much per hour in the carpenters union so i call" the turn comes broadway and our top 2 man is married to his ace king and all his chips go to the sucker. now, i play the hand against the sucker and i jack him way up on the flop and give him the death stare. he says to himself, " 50 or all in to try and hit my gutshot, i cant call, fold". i win the small pot, i am still playing, i am not rebuying because i got cute with a vulnerable hand. now, the most important point to this whole story. how strong a game r u going to play after dumping all yur chips because of yur smooth call? unless yur super mentally tough, u better go home and call it a day. these r the most important things that the technical types dont seem to factor. anyone here who thinks a smooth call in that spot is a good play is seriously mistaken. dont believe me? go ask old DN or some other big name and see what they say. this is a cash game people, not a tournament.

[Captain_Walt 0]

if he bets again on the turn and i dont improve, then i'll muckare serious? The turn comes the 2d let's say and you are going to muck if he leads out on the turn? I disagree with 110% of what your entire post suggested was the correct way to play this hand.To the OP ignore what PMC said and listen to Davin, 3 handed with top two, no flush on board. I would put "charlie" on a complete bluff or an A, no reason to raising the flop and get him out of the hand when there is a good chance he will put in another raise on the turn and do the betting for us.

[pmc 0]

i said if i had an under pair, i would fold on the turn to another bet. i'm not a journalist and maybe i dont write so clear. look, if u guys want to smooth call in that spot, go ahead. i'll be hearing yur bad beat stories on the rail as i'm walking out of the card room after playin my usual tough session regardless if i win or lose. at least i go home not feeling sick for making the nerdy cute play. i'm a winning player and i gave u the right play. i only came to this site just to talk some poker because i took a day off from the card room. i dont think that real players go to chat rooms and discuss poker. real players r busy playing. i got a tournament to play today that will pay 15 to 20 grand for first place. sunday, i'm playin a 1000 dollar entry fee tournament. in the mean time, i'll be playin my usual 20/40 game or 40/80 tryin to climb the latter. thats the highest i can afford. if i could play higher, i would. howard lederer says it takes about ten years to climb the latter to the big games and tourneys. i'm not there yet and i might not make it. thats a reality.but at least i'm taking the time out to tell u guys how a winning player plays a hand to try and make money, not to be a hero and pull a fancy play that in the games i play in wont get u an extra dime. people i play with will fire a bluff barrel on the flop and then shut it off on the turn espeacially when theyre out of position. a smooth call in that spot is a weak play. all it does is invite disaster. i'll be the first one to tell u i been on quite a few tilt sessions in the past because of cute plays. i learned to shut that crap off and play a strong game. this nonsense of playing correct doesnt necesarily apply anymore because people play better nowadays. i'll also be the first one to admit that being a winning player is not easy. i didnt make one flush in a cash game for the whole month of october. hard to believe but its true. i been on incredible bad streaks before. yur bankroll gets cut in half after a bad month and all kinds of funny things enter yur head. i wonder how many people here have stomached a 2 month bad streak and still pay the bills with poker. i'm still in action and surviving and u guys have all the right answers and i'm the one who's wrong. good luck to u all and play yur hands the way u see fit. i'm out of here never to return. thanks for the converstaions

[Leet8s 0]

OK, getting to another question about this hand and in general:When I play poker, I always try to extract the most out of my opponents as I can with a big hand. This hand, I considered top 2 pair to be a monster considering it was 3 handed and my opponent is prone to firing at the pot alot. Was I wrong in trying to maximize the value of my hand based on my read or do you guys think it would have been smarter to always play i safe and raise the flop cause something like a str8 could have been hit.I went for the possible big score thinking he had Ace-Queen or Ace-7, possibly bluffing and trying to induce more betting. Is there anything wrong with this philosophy??

[Davin 0]

i still dont think you understand why i think a smooth call is the best lineit invites him to bluff again on the turn if he misses (which will happen A LOT more than if he hits). by raising to give him improper odds, he'll most likely a. fold or b. give you no action on the turn (although i think he'd fold much more often than call) and i love how you can generalize my game just by the school i go to. you've got me down to a peg.and i also like how you consider these "kiddie" no limit games. just bc im a full time student and play .5/1 and 1/2 no limit games (and dont have time to build a roll for anything more) doesnt mean im gonna make atrocious calls like the one you suggested (unless there's "pros" at your level that do this constantly). well lemme generalize you. by the fact that you can neither paragraph correctly and you spell like an 8th grader (ie. using "yur" instead of "you're"), i'd have to say that you're maybe 16-17 and living an online fantasy life of an aspiring poker pro. also since you seem to try to lend credibility to your arguments by noting that you play high stakes in every post furthers my theory that you're full of shit. either that or you have a very small penis

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Haven't read replies...Convert your hands.Don't post results.Raise the flop.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Having read replies...Wow. We have a lot of work to do if a lot of you thinking calling the flop is okay.Calling the flop is NOT okay. Not by a little, by a LOT.We aren't trying to "extract the maximum." Flopping two pair isn't "a monster." Two pair is a very bad hand for making money. It gets overplayed a lot, it gets counterfeited a lot, and it's susceptible to every draw out there. It's only chance to improve is a very slim 4-outing boat redraw.It's a bad case of reverse implied odds... and it's why you went broke. We need to raise, right NOW, to protect our hand.

[Davin 0]

Having read replies...Wow. We have a lot of work to do if a lot of you thinking calling the flop is okay.Calling the flop is NOT okay. Not by a little, by a LOT.We aren't trying to "extract the maximum." Flopping two pair isn't "a monster." Two pair is a very bad hand for making money. It gets overplayed a lot, it gets counterfeited a lot, and it's susceptible to every draw out there. It's only chance to improve is a very slim 4-outing boat redraw.It's a bad case of reverse implied odds... and it's why you went broke. We need to raise, right NOW, to protect our hand.

let's see what our opponent may holdcase 1: a weaker ace, in this case, top 2 is a monstercase 2: a weaker king, same as abovecase 3: a set, we'd lose our money regardless of the turncase 4: a lower pp (2 outs)case 5: a broadway straight draw (4 outs)case 6: absoluetely nothing, which means ak is also a monsteryou said yourself a 4-outer is very slim, so that means any draw that he has is just as slim (if not more). multiway w/ 2 of the same suit on the board, yes, raise top two every day and every night. heads up w/ a rainbow flop, i call and allow my opponent to bet again on the turn.also, i'd read his flop bet as an ace w/ a bad kicker more than a broadway straight draw, so again, a flop call would be best in this scenerio.your analysis is heavily results based. if the turn was a 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,j,k,a; then we would have won more money by waiting til the turn. but because villain hit his gutshot, this now seems like a horrible play bc op got sucked out.scared money never makes money

[Guest]

Calling the flop here is like giving a free card, if AK is considered a monster or not you have given them a chance to see the next card with no decision to make. At least raise here, especially since you have already said they are a loose player and you are short handed. I totally disagree with going all in here, when you have position that just gives it away. I think you played this hand well, I just think you should have raised after the flop based on the comments regarding this players style, if they were extremely tight you should get out of the hand when they bet knowing they probably had thier set..... I do not make my living playing cards nor do I play high limit games, "yet".... Good luck in the future and hope this makes some sense.________________________________________Yimmet @ | Bodog | PokerStars | UltimateBet

[DrZebra 0]

Davin is dead on.

[HurricaneKyle 0]

No, no and no. Raise this! If he is crazy and aggressive make him pay more for the next card. If he has an ace, he is calling in a shorthanded game. Opponents make mistakes when you are forcing them to put more money in the pot when they almost certainly have the worst of it. Those mistakes are money in your pocket. It can be very costly to let him see the turn without putting in a little more money. In my opinion, its almost always a mistake to slowplay a hand that is less than a set unless your reads are really on.

[Davin 0]

No, no and no. Raise this! If he is crazy and aggressive make him pay more for the next card. If he has an ace, he is calling in a shorthanded game. Opponents make mistakes when you are forcing them to put more money in the pot when they almost certainly have the worst of it. Those mistakes are money in your pocket. It can be very costly to let him see the turn without putting in a little more money. In my opinion, its almost always a mistake to slowplay a hand that is less than a set unless your reads are really on.

aggressive doesnt mean stupidim aggressive, i'd bet this flop w/ j10. but if i were raised, i'd foldif my opponent just called, i'd lead out on the turn again bc i'd expect my opponent to have raised w/ an ace. and even if he had an ace, i might be able to push him off it. if he's aggressive, give him the rope to hang himself. if he had an ace, he might call the flop raise, he might not. but he'll surely lead the turn if we just called on the flop.

[Davin 0]

actually, there is no one correct way to play this hand. it really depends on your playing stay as much as your opponentsif you're weak-tight, or tag. calling is the way to go on the flop (as your opponent would be more inclined to bet the turn bc of your passiveness on the flop)if you're much more aggressive, leaning towards lag, i would raise this flop since you might get played back w/ an unbelieving weak aceit really depends as much on your style as your opponents but w/ a lag opponent, i think a call is still the best course of action.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Davin, you really like contradicting me it seems.Raising is better, in this situation, and in similar situations against unknowns.If the cost of "maximizing value" is that he'll sometimes spike a Q and our hero can't get away from top two, then that costs us a lot of money, doesn't it?Heads up in position people like to mess around. When messing around is what ends up breaking us, don't reinforce the messing around. Return to simplicity, and play more basic, tight/aggressive poker.Raise the flop. It adds value, makes gutshots that would have otherwise hit fold sometimes (valuable!), and gets you more information than calling does.All those things and other things I won't mention for the purposes of brevity all add up to raising being a better move than calling.Just because you CAN call and get paid off by huckle cards doesn't mean calling the flop is the best decision.Two pair is NOT a monster, kids. The sooner you all learn that the sooner you'll make more money. Two pair is the 3rd worst hand you can make.

[pmc 0]

davin, yur not even an experienced player and u refuse to listen to experience. if DN says raise the flop, then i guess you'll listen to him but not someone who has been playing off and on for 20 years and playin professionally for the past 4 years. u remind me of a group of guys who used to play the local tournaments here in the bay area. i called them the nerd patrol. they were the type that limped in with pocket aces and kings and though they were really smart when they trapped people including myself with theyre terrible play. long story short, not one of them play anymore and i knew they wouldnt last. the cute moves only invite disaster that more importantly, can lead the average player into full blown tilt. everyone knows how to play decent these days. t.v. is educating the masses on how to play a game that on the most part, is not a very skillful or technical game. yes, i said it, its not a very skillful game. if u learn the abc's, follow a few simple guidelines and NEVER GO ON TILT, anyone can make money at this game. t.v. and books can give u all the info u need but it will never give u self control. i said it once and i'll say it again, top 2 in texas holdem is not really a hand to slow play, its a hand to play strong and protect. do u think i say this because i just want to argue and show how smart i am? go ask daniel and see what he says. as a matter of fact, i'll put up a post that will ask danny for his opinion. if i'm wrong, i quit poker. i been thinking about quitting professionally anyway. its a cool game but its not for everyone as a profession. u have to love the game. i dont love the game. its just a job with a lot of lows and some nice highs.

[Shizant 0]

well, the smooth call got him broke right? davin, i dont know who u r, i dont know what kind of player u r. yur from mit i notice and that gives me some indications. yur a smart guy, maybe too smart for poker. i played with u technical types for years. no doubt, yur absolutely right that when yur the favorite, u should invite action from a draw, BUT NOT WITH A SMOOTH CALL. raise just enough so that if he calls, he's getting the wrong odds to do so. so lets see, a pot size raise of 25 dollars should do the trick. but lets see, this is the kiddie small no limit game. the sucker says to himself, "what the hell, its 25 bucks more to me, i make that much per hour in the carpenters union so i call" the turn comes broadway and our top 2 man is married to his ace king and all his chips go to the sucker. now, i play the hand against the sucker and i jack him way up on the flop and give him the death stare.  he says to himself, " 50 or all in to try and hit my gutshot, i cant call, fold". i win the small pot, i am still playing, i am not rebuying because i got cute with a vulnerable hand. now, the most important point to this whole story. how strong a game r u going to play after dumping all yur chips because of yur smooth call? unless yur super mentally tough, u better go home and call it a day. these r the most important things that the technical types dont seem to factor. anyone here who thinks a smooth call in that spot is a good play is seriously mistaken. dont believe me? go ask old DN or some other big name and see what they say. this is a cash game people, not a tournament.

I agree with PMC here 100%! I too am a winning. I know exactly what PMC is talking about. This is not a tournament it's cash!!!! Take down the pot and move to the next hand. Check out my last post on this Thread as to why you make that all-in or $50 raise on the flop.It's kinda long but read all of it and all the posts if you want to know the prespective of a winning cash game player...Thread: http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/v...pic.php?t=35699