crying call or fold this river????

[spikymarv99 0]

1) 40-80 at Commerce. Hero is UTG+1 with A -A . I raise, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, BB calls. I called thinking that capping it would give my hand away and will not thin the field based on the size of the pot. Everyone else calls. Do you raise or call? (Pre-flop pot= $720 or 9 big bets).2) The flop comes J -7:spade: -5 . I check and it goes around to MP3 who bets. Button calls, BB calls, I raise, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 three bets, Button calls, BB calls, I cap, and everyone calls. Any problem with flop play? I checked wanting to check raise the Button and managed to cap it. (Flop= $1680 or 21 big bets).3) The turn is an 8 . Checked to me and I lead out, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button folds, BB calls. I know the 8 is a semi-scary card making a straight possible, but I didn't believe that anyone would stick around with 10-9 except if they were spades. If they had, I would have found out about it. So far, I know I'm ahead and need to fade one more card. Can't see not leading out here. (Turn= $2000 or 26 big bets)4) The river is the 9 . BB checks and I check as well. Some have told me to lead out, but I think that is stupid because there is simply no value in that (I hope people understand why). UTG bets, MP3 folds, BB folds. It is now to me???? Do I make a crying call or fold. Please give reasoning based on info. Assume all players are solid.

[Guest Zach6668]

Call.The pot is enormous. It's 1 BB.... Why is this hard?

[Abbaddabba 0]

Closing action for 1 big bet, there is no way you should be folding it.

1) 40-80 at Commerce. Hero is UTG+1 with A -A . I raise, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, BB calls. I called thinking that capping it would give my hand away and will not thin the field based on the size of the pot. Everyone else calls. Do you raise or call? (Pre-flop pot= $720 or 9 big bets).

You dont cap it to thin the field. You cap it for value.

[spikymarv99 0]

Call.The pot is enormous. It's 1 BB.... Why is this hard?

My thinking is simple: There are two people behind him that have not acted yet. Do you bet this without a straight or flush? A straight still can't bet this. This is an impossible bluff situation. Not saying whether I folded or called, but what can he be betting here?

[Guest Zach6668]

What about a bet/fold line?

[Abbaddabba 0]

4) The river is the 9 . BB checks and I check as well. Some have told me to lead out, but I think that is stupid because there is simply no value in that (I hope people understand why). UTG bets, MP3 folds, BB folds. It is now to me???? Do I make a crying call or fold. Please give reasoning based on info. Assume all players are solid.

If he has AJ even 1/27 times, that alone makes it a call.

[spikymarv99 0]

Closing action for 1 big bet, there is no way you should be folding it.

1) 40-80 at Commerce. Hero is UTG+1 with A -A . I raise, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, BB calls. I called thinking that capping it would give my hand away and will not thin the field based on the size of the pot. Everyone else calls. Do you raise or call? (Pre-flop pot= $720 or 9 big bets).

You dont cap it to thin the field. You cap it for value.

Wouldn't you agree that the 1 extra raise I would get would be better used in disguising my hand (I can have alot of hands by just calling) in order to extract max value on the flop? If not, can you give your reasoning.

[Guest Zach6668]

Closing action for 1 big bet, there is no way you should be folding it.

1) 40-80 at Commerce. Hero is UTG+1 with A -A . I raise, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, BB calls. I called thinking that capping it would give my hand away and will not thin the field based on the size of the pot. Everyone else calls. Do you raise or call? (Pre-flop pot= $720 or 9 big bets).

You dont cap it to thin the field. You cap it for value.

Wouldn't you agree that the 1 extra raise I would get would be better used in disguising my hand (I can have alot of hands by just calling) in order to extract max value on the flop? If not, can you give your reasoning.

Does it matter when the bets went in? Whether they go in preflop or on the flop is the same.Say you cap preflop, and people are now scared that you have aces. Maybe you can fold a ragged T or 6 here and win yourself the pot on the river, when people fold fearing a ton of action behind them.

[spikymarv99 0]

What about a bet/fold line?

That did occur to me, but then any good player will raise with air based on the assumption that I didn't play it like a draw at all. I think after the flop, the jig was up and everyone knew my holding. The initial flop bettor told me that he had A-J and would have raised if folded to him if I bet. I would raise with anything under those circumstances as well.

[Abbaddabba 0]

How many more bets will you realistically get by doing that?Once you raise for 1 bet on the flop, the jig is up. I'd rather put in that raise preflop when i know i have the best hand. And besides - if someone has top pair and the pot is that huge from preflop action, they're probably still going to be raising the flop in order to potentially clean up some outs.Huge pots make everyone a bit more aggressive than they otherwise would be.

[Guest Zach6668]

What about a bet/fold line?

That did occur to me, but then any good player will raise with air based on the assumption that I didn't play it like a draw at all. I think after the flop, the jig was up and everyone knew my holding. The initial flop bettor told me that he had A-J and would have raised if folded to him if I bet. I would raise with anything under those circumstances as well.

Let me remind you I don't play 40-80.

[spikymarv99 0]

Closing action for 1 big bet, there is no way you should be folding it.

1) 40-80 at Commerce. Hero is UTG+1 with A -A . I raise, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, BB calls. I called thinking that capping it would give my hand away and will not thin the field based on the size of the pot. Everyone else calls. Do you raise or call? (Pre-flop pot= $720 or 9 big bets).

You dont cap it to thin the field. You cap it for value.

Wouldn't you agree that the 1 extra raise I would get would be better used in disguising my hand (I can have alot of hands by just calling) in order to extract max value on the flop? If not, can you give your reasoning.

Does it matter when the bets went in? Whether they go in preflop or on the flop is the same.Say you cap preflop, and people are now scared that you have aces. Maybe you can fold a ragged T or 6 here and win yourself the pot on the river, when people fold fearing a ton of action behind them.

If I cap pre-flop, the pot is HUGE. No hand should fold pre-flop based on pot odds. Additonally, nobody will fold if they have any piece of the flop and I probably only get one bet in on the flop rather than capping it. When I just called pre-flop, my intent was to extract 3 bets on the flop. If I capped, the A-J would not raise the flop. Any thoughts on this line? My whole purpose was to attain maximum value.

[spikymarv99 0]

How many more bets will you realistically get by doing that?Once you raise for 1 bet on the flop, the jig is up. I'd rather put in that raise preflop when i know i have the best hand. And besides - if someone has top pair and the pot is that huge from preflop action, they're probably still going to be raising the flop in order to potentially clean up some outs.Huge pots make everyone a bit more aggressive than they otherwise would be.

By not capping pre-flop, it widens the range of hands that I hold. I would check-raise this flop with A-K, maybe even A-Qs to isolate the bettor and MP3 knows tht. That's why he made it three to go. Once I capped it, he knew he knew what I had, but the pot was laying him too much to fold. By capping pre-flop I lose 2 bets each from a bunch of players. Any thoughts on this line?

[Guest Zach6668]

If I cap pre-flop, the pot is HUGE. No hand should fold pre-flop based on pot odds. Additonally, nobody will fold if they have any piece of the flop and I probably only get one bet in on the flop rather than capping it. When I just called pre-flop, my intent was to extract 3 bets on the flop. If I capped, the A-J would not raise the flop. Any thoughts on this line? My whole purpose was to attain maximum value.

Well, I meant you may get a T to fold on the flop, etc.It's hard to say though. I will always cap the flop given the opportunity. I would also cap preflop with hands like TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AK, AQs, in these situations, where it'll multi way in a HUGE pot. Cap it!!! If they are paying attention, they will know that you have a wider capping range.Makes sense? Or am I way off here...

[spikymarv99 0]

If I cap pre-flop, the pot is HUGE. No hand should fold pre-flop based on pot odds. Additonally, nobody will fold if they have any piece of the flop and I probably only get one bet in on the flop rather than capping it. When I just called pre-flop, my intent was to extract 3 bets on the flop. If I capped, the A-J would not raise the flop. Any thoughts on this line? My whole purpose was to attain maximum value.

Well, I meant you may get a T to fold on the flop, etc.It's hard to say though. I will always cap the flop given the opportunity. I would also cap the flop with hands like TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AK, AQs, in these situations, where it'll multi way in a HUGE pot. Cap it!!! If they are paying attention, they will know that you have a wider capping range.Makes sense? Or am I way off here...

I didn't expect a 10, unless it was suited with a spade, to survive the flop action. I wouldn't cap this flop with T-T, A-K, or A-Qs. My whole reasoning behing check raising this flop if I held one of those hands is to isolate and outplay. If I get 3-bet, I would just call and fold the turn if I don't improve. By capping it without a hand you lose all control of this pot. Does that make any sense? It's hard putting these thoughts into words. Sometimes you will get outplayed if he is three-betting with air when your holding 10-10, A-K, or A-Q, but that happens to the best of them.

[Guest Zach6668]

Sorry spiky, I meant capping all of those hands preflop, I'm not that retarded aggressive.

[Abbaddabba 0]

By not capping pre-flop, it widens the range of hands that I hold. I would check-raise this flop with A-K, maybe even A-Qs to isolate the bettor and MP3 knows tht. That's why he made it three to go. Once I capped it, he knew he knew what I had, but the pot was laying him too much to fold. By capping pre-flop I lose 2 bets each from a bunch of players. Any thoughts on this line?...If I cap pre-flop, the pot is HUGE. No hand should fold pre-flop based on pot odds. Additonally, nobody will fold if they have any piece of the flop and I probably only get one bet in on the flop rather than capping it. When I just called pre-flop, my intent was to extract 3 bets on the flop. If I capped, the A-J would not raise the flop. Any thoughts on this line? My whole purpose was to attain maximum value.

How exactly could you plan on getting 3bet?You have no way of knowing it will happen.You have no way of knowing that he'll even put in a continuation bet if he completely misses against such a large field. If MP3 checked to the preflop aggressor, as is usually the case, there's a good chance that you'd get zero bets in on the flop.

[spikymarv99 0]

By not capping pre-flop, it widens the range of hands that I hold. I would check-raise this flop with A-K, maybe even A-Qs to isolate the bettor and MP3 knows tht. That's why he made it three to go. Once I capped it, he knew he knew what I had, but the pot was laying him too much to fold. By capping pre-flop I lose 2 bets each from a bunch of players. Any thoughts on this line?...If I cap pre-flop, the pot is HUGE. No hand should fold pre-flop based on pot odds. Additonally, nobody will fold if they have any piece of the flop and I probably only get one bet in on the flop rather than capping it. When I just called pre-flop, my intent was to extract 3 bets on the flop. If I capped, the A-J would not raise the flop. Any thoughts on this line? My whole purpose was to attain maximum value.

How exactly could you plan on getting 3bet?You have no way of knowing it will happen.You have no way of knowing that he'll even put in a continuation bet if he completely misses against such a large field. If MP3 checked to the preflop aggressor, as is usually the case, there's a good chance that you'd get zero bets in on the flop.

Go through the action pre-flop.... what would you raise an UTG+1 raiser with. The Button was not making a position raise. It was safe to assume that he would bet the flop if checked to him. If this doesn't make sense then maybe I need help explaining it.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Well, not necessarily.And by the looks of how the hand played out, he probably would have checked behind.

[spikymarv99 0]

This thread has gotten away from the reason why I made it. I basically made a crying call to the river bet and he happily turned over A-10 of spades for the flush and the straight. I called basically because of the price of the pot even though I knew there was no way I could win. I spoke with two sucessful 300-600 and higher players and they both called me a donkey for making the call. There reasoning was based on what I stated earlier. You can't bet witout the flush because there are two people yet to act and the aggressor will prob have to call you b/c of the size of the pot. They both independently stated that making that call is complete donkey shit. The more I think about it, the more they are correct. I knew there is no way he can be bluffing yet I called?????????????? They stated that it is bets saved like that will make you a long time winning player along with those value bets you make with marginal hands. Does anyone agree with this? Looking at the math again.... He needs to be betting K-K or lower 1-27 times for this to be a profitable call. There is no way he is doing this 1-27 times so my call was horrible. There probably needs to be 99 big bets in the pot in order to make this call correct. Does anyone else see this?

[Abbaddabba 0]

Funny thing is - You're saying that he would never bluff because it would never work. Yet at the same time, you're saying that a good player would fold to his river bet with an over pair, closing action. Which means that if it was a bluff, it would have worked. People very often do really weird, erratic and retarded things. At all levels.

[spikymarv99 0]

Funny thing is - You're saying that he would never bluff because it would never work. Yet at the same time, you're saying that a good player would fold to his river bet with an over pair, closing action. Which means that if it was a bluff, it would have worked. People very often do really weird, erratic and retarded things. At all levels.

If I mistated, I'm sorry. He would never bluff b/c there are two people behind him yet to act. If he was the last player to act and he bet, then I was advised to make a crying call. Since he bet despite the fact that two people have not acted, the pot is huge, and the initial aggressor still has a say.... the odds that A-A is good here is basically zero. Don't get me wrong, I thought along the lines of everyone here. I knew I was beat, but I still called because the pot was too big. They stated that a 40-80 player could not make this move with a hand that I could beat; we're just not that sophisticated. Furthermore, they stated calling is always bad; either fold or raise... folding being the smart choice. Their logic is if he was betting a straight on the river, a check raise might get him to lay down a straight or if he made a set; there is basically no hand that I can beat that would bet this river. Looking back, I should have just folded. I learned something very nice today even though it cost me alot of money. I just wanted to share this with everyone here and hope they got the same from it that I have.

[Abbaddabba 0]

They stated that a 40-80 player could not make this move without a flush; we're just not that sophisticated.

If that's their idea of sophstication, party poker micro limit tables are filled with philosopher kings.

[nrs02004 0]

please don't ask a question if you don't want an answer...Also, if this is a leak it's a really small one so don't worry about it...

[Guest Zach6668]

please don't ask a question if you don't want an answer...Also, if this is a leak it's a really small one so don't worry about it...

Lol, no kidding. It's 27-1 to call, it can't be thaaaaat bad of a call, you only need to be good here like < 4%!!!! I understand the point you are making, and I understand 40/80 plays a bit differently, but I think the random donk factor accounts for at least 4% here. You'll be happy the 27th time this happens, and he's betting his KK.- Zach