thecamelot 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 First hand posted in ages... Just sat at this table, 5th hand or so. Just saw BB 3-bet KJ off from MP.Thoughts on all streets I guess... Should I raise the flop? River looks easy...Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: thecamelot is Button with [Kh], [Qd]. 5 folds, CO calls, thecamelot raises, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.Flop: (6.50 SB) [6h], [4d], [Ts] (4 players)BB bets, CO folds, thecamelot calls.Turn: (4.25 BB) [Js] (3 players)BB bets, thecamelot calls.River: (6.25 BB) [As] (3 players)BB bets, thecamelot ...? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 River is an eeeeeeeeeasy raise... not sure how you got there, but it's an easy raise.- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
thecamelot 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Yeah, river is easy :)But, as for getting there... I didn't think he had much, and was hoping to pick up a piece on the turn. Then I got passive with the OESD.Should I have gotten rid of the hand earlie? Link to post Share on other sites
devilsslide 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 What do we have on the flop? Overcards +backdoor straight draw= 3.5 outs? The pot's only 6.5 SB. Does seeing the BB 3-bet with KJ justify a call here? I think I’m normally looking to fold.Turn's good, raise river Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 The pot being this small on the flop, I'm probably just letting the hand go there. Even people who 3-bet with KJ have hands sometimes. Add in a backdoor flush draw and maybe I'm more likely to take one off on the flop. But I don't like worrying about hands like that in heads up pots that are fairly small.Definitely raise the river though. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 folding flop is weak.Camelot, you want flop advice, don't show rest of hand.May bias me.Our overs are clean enough to get then 4 outs, min.We can call, but I prefer a flop raiseIf 3-bet, we call and fold turn UI. (this turn we improved)As played, raise - cap river Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Agreed with Actuary, the flop is a raise or a fold. I lean towards raising, especially against a donkey, because they will gay bet this flop with nothing very often, plus you are taking the lead. Also, I didn't realize you had an OESD on the turn, so the rest plays itself.- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
psujohn 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I don't think the flop is raise or fold. I actually just call here. Villain will lead this flop all day with 2nd pair or worse. I like to call here so that if a K or Q falls on the turn I can raise his inevitable bet. Why is there any doubt about raising this river? I'm not afraid of the bd flush and you shouldn't be either. Raise it and call if 3-bet. If villain had top pair on the flop he doesn't have a flush and he could easily 3-bet with two pair here. Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I'm just curious as to what makes this a flop raise? Is it because of the likelihood, due to it being heads up, that he's betting with nothing or because of our overcards/backdoor straight draw? Do you raise there with, say, two other players in the hand?This isn't me trying to argue the point or be a jerk, by the way, this is me trying to learn. Just so everyone knows. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Well, I may be completely wrong about this one. Raising the flop may be terrible. The problem with KQ is that there is no showdown value. The biggest reason to raise it multi way would be to clean up some outs. Raising it heads up depends on the donk factor of the villain, as well as the propensity to get a free card on the turn to draw to your overs, or bdsd, bdfd, etc. All of this leads me to raise some of the time here. I don't do it the same every time though.I could be waaaaaay off though.- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Well, I may be completely wrong about this one. Raising the flop may be terrible. The problem with KQ is that there is no showdown value. The biggest reason to raise it multi way would be to clean up some outs. Raising it heads up depends on the donk factor of the villain, as well as the propensity to get a free card on the turn to draw to your overs, or bdsd, bdfd, etc. All of this leads me to raise some of the time here. I don't do it the same every time though.I could be waaaaaay off though.- ZachRaising for a free card definitely makes sense and is not something I do enough with just overs. At this point it's hard for me to say something like "well, I've got at least four outs, at most 7ish outs, so I should raise this flop with no hand," especially when the big blind leads into a preflop raiser. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Raising for a free card definitely makes sense and is not something I do enough with just overs. At this point it's hard for me to say something like "well, I've got at least four outs, at most 7ish outs, so I should raise this flop with no hand," especially when the big blind leads into a preflop raiser.I know... it seems very counterintuitive... which is why I may be wrong.I really don't give the BB any respect for donking me. I don't know wtf he is doing. I hate gaybets!- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I know... it seems very counterintuitive... which is why I may be wrong.I really don't give the BB any respect for donking me. I don't know wtf he is doing. I hate gaybets!- ZachOh, I hear ya. I hate that kind of bet. Though there are plenty of players who see "preflop raiser on the button...probably two big cards...probably didn't hit a ten high flop..." so they lead automatically from the BB. In this hand it'd be so handy to have that kind of read. And furthermore, and completely off topic, I hate not being able to datamine Party Poker! Link to post Share on other sites
psujohn 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 For those that raise the flop - if it's checked to us on this turn do you bet it? Does the free card play lose some appeal if you're not going to take the free card?Even if we just call the flop if it's checked to us on this turn I'm awfully tempted to bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Pipedream 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Oh, I hear ya. I hate that kind of bet. Though there are plenty of players who see "preflop raiser on the button...probably two big cards...probably didn't hit a ten high flop..." so they lead automatically from the BB. In this hand it'd be so handy to have that kind of read. And furthermore, and completely off topic, I hate not being able to datamine Party Poker!totally agree as I see this all the time at the $1-2 level. I like the raise on the flop for the free card but I also see a lot of donks who are extremely loose from the blinds preflop and will 3 bet with 2 pair (some even do it with just bottem pair). I would probably avoid the flop raise and just call though, but I would definately raise with the OESD on the turn. River is an easy raise as well. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 For those that raise the flop - if it's checked to us on this turn do you bet it? Does the free card play lose some appeal if you're not going to take the free card?Even if we just call the flop if it's checked to us on this turn I'm awfully tempted to bet.I bet the turn if checked to. Not only do we have the OESD now, but we also have the fold equity, and two overs. If the turn was say a 2, I'd check behind.- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Even if we just call the flop if it's checked to us on this turn I'm awfully tempted to bet.since it's HU i would be too. especially if I had raised the flop. I don't see the value in raising the flop if we dont like our hand enough to show down UI by betting the turn then checking behind on the river. I don't like raising for a free card if all we have is overs + bd gutshot straight draw. Link to post Share on other sites
psujohn 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I don't like a turn raise as played to that point.If we raise the turn we lose 2 when we miss and win 3 when we hitIf we call the turn we lose 1 when we miss and (hopefully) win 3 when we hitAnd that's all given that we don't get 3-bet on the turn which would SUUUUCK in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 For those that raise the flop - if it's checked to us on this turn do you bet it? Does the free card play lose some appeal if you're not going to take the free card?glad I read thru because that's exactly why I'm raising here.Free Card Play and a little for information.Yes, I'll take free card, UI. On this board, I fire a bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 glad I read thru because that's exactly why I'm raising here.Free Card Play and a little for information.Yes, I'll take free card, UI. On this board, I fire a bet. me too!Also, good work guys on getting active in the forums here again... we don't want this place to die! Today has been very active. Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 After all this discussion I'm significantly less confused than when we started. Now, what if we had more opponents in between us and the bettor who had already called? Do we take one off there or do we still raise for the free card? Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 me too!Also, good work guys on getting active in the forums here again... we don't want this place to die! Today has been very active.I hate my job. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 After all this discussion I'm significantly less confused than when we started. Now, what if we had more opponents in between us and the bettor who had already called? Do we take on off there or do we still raise for the free card?Depends on how passive the callers are, and their propensity to check to you if you raised the flop, etc. Also, if there are more people in the pot, the odds that are outs are clean decreases, so it changes the situation a little bit. One caller, I'll still raise, 2 or more, I may just call. That kinda goes against the thinking that raising is better in bigger pots, but it's a tricky situation. We really only have Kigh high, which fares pretty poorly against many opponents.- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Depends on how passive the callers are, and their propensity to check to you if you raised the flop, etc. Also, if there are more people in the pot, the odds that are outs are clean decreases, so it changes the situation a little bit. One caller, I'll still raise, 2 or more, I may just call. That kinda goes against the thinking that raising is better in bigger pots, but it's a tricky situation. We really only have Kigh high, which fares pretty poorly against many opponents.- ZachThe fact that the outs are likely much less clean would probably lead me to just take one off in that spot, and fold unimproved. Do you guys think that's too weak? I suppose the free card play isn't any less valuable, but I don't like that we're far more likely (I think) to lose if we hit our already weak draw. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 so Act,you want to raise for a free card, then when we pick up a draw you want to bet and not take the free card? we're essentially raising for a free shot at our overcards? i dont like that idea, but maybe its just me. Link to post Share on other sites
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