K4s Vs Slap

[Actuary 3]

all steeets.Villain is SLAPPokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)Preflop: Actuary is BB with , . 2 folds, MP1 raises, 3 folds, SB calls, Actuary calls.Flop: (6 SB) , , (3 players)SB checks, Actuary bets, MP1 raises, SB folds, Actuary calls.Turn: (5 BB) (2 players)Actuary checks, MP1 bets, Actuary calls.River: (7 BB) (2 players)Actuary checks, MP1 bets, Actuary calls.Final Pot: 9 BBOn the turn, I told myself, "Call, because worse hands will check behind a lot", but then I still called the riverIt could still be worse hands, given no flop 3-bet from me.

[SCS 0]

Does villain bet a lot on the turn with weak hands? If not I'd fold on the turn.I'd c/r the flop and b/f turn.

[aim786 0]

The way you played it, I fold here about 0% of the time.I like SCS's line better, and I could find a fold if he pops me on the turn.

[Actuary 3]

I tend to c/r with less than TP here and take SC line.

[aim786 0]

I tend to c/r with less than TP here and take SC line.

SC?

[mrdannyg 274]

i never donk, but definitely don't here without a read. with the SB's cold-call indicating strength, i much prefer to maintain position on the hand by checking, folding to two bets or raising one and bet/folding the turn. i think this is a pretty standard line without a read, when we have the option of acting last relative to the leading player.

[Actuary 3]

i never donk, but definitely don't here without a read. with the SB's cold-call indicating strength, i much prefer to maintain position on the hand by checking, folding to two bets or raising one and bet/folding the turn. i think this is a pretty standard line without a read, when we have the option of acting last relative to the leading player.

Donking protects our hand when the pfr will sometimes pop worse hands and fold SB.

On the turn, I told myself, "Call, because worse hands will check behind a lot"

That might be the most non-sensical thing posted in this forum in a long time.You hope he BETS worse hands and occassionaly checks behind with KQ

[Zach6668 513]

I detest donkbetting in general.I really like it here though.Actually, I like the way you played the hand.My initial thought was to c/r the flop, but then I read your point about protecting our hand if he raises us on the flop, facing SB cold. The only thing there, is that the PFR has to be raising us with worse hands than top pair for it to be a good play, no? If we check to him, he's almost always betting worse hands than a King, but he's certainly not always raising them. That's very important to the flop play.As played, I call down unless he only raises with TPTK+ on the flop, but if that's all he raises with, we wouldn't have donked, right?

[antistuff 0]

i like your line in this hand.

[Dogpatch 2]

I don't think there's anything you could do differently. In a way this a bad flop for you. It's enough to keep you hanging on, but barely enough to win.I lead out on the flop here. If everyone missed we can take it down here.Villain's raise though, tells me we're beat. I play SLAP (and if I remember correctly, you do too Actuary) This looks like he has us crushed with a better kicker. Still, get it to showdown as cheap as possible. Looks like you did.

[Zach6668 513]

I don't think there's anything you could do differently. In a way this a bad flop for you. It's enough to keep you hanging on, but barely enough to win.I lead out on the flop here. If everyone missed we can take it down here.Villain's raise though, tells me we're beat. I play SLAP (and if I remember correctly, you do too Actuary) This looks like he has us crushed with a better kicker. Still, get it to showdown as cheap as possible. Looks like you did.

That's not really why you're betting out at the flop. Taking it down right there isn't exactly the best result for us.

[Dogpatch 2]

That's not really why you're betting out at the flop. Taking it down right there isn't exactly the best result for us.

Well, that's not my main reasoning. I'm saying it's a possibility.My reasoning, (and please tell me if this is wrong, but be nice ) is a bet here will find out who else has a K. What else would be calling/raising here? (a set? which also has us beat) There is no draw.What would be a better result than not taking it down? A 4 maybe? What would a K do for us, but marry us to this hand?I think this has the potential to be an interesting hand.

[Zach6668 513]

Well, that's not my main reasoning. I'm saying it's a possibility.My reasoning, (and please tell me if this is wrong, but be nice ) is a bet here will find out who else has a K. What else would be calling/raising here? (a set? which also has us beat) There is no draw.What would be a better result than not taking it down? A 4 maybe? What would a K do for us, but marry us to this hand?I think this has the potential to be an interesting hand.

Well, a Kxx flop is good for us. If it isn't, then we should be folding pf.I'm not sure I like the donkbet here. I know I said I did, but it predicates that villain is raising with less than top pair.If he's not, then we should be c/r'ing, because he'll certainly bet with less, or like 98% of his range.The idea of our donkbet, knowing he'll raise worse hands, results in SB being faced with 2 cold, which is good for us.The thing though, there aren't too many hands that are drawing very live against us, that we're ahead of. Like a lower pair has 5 outs, a pocket pair has 2 outs, only 67 has more than 5 outs. So we really don't need to protect against much here.I think I've completely changed my mind and I prefer a c/r. Not a ton of players will raise QQ and bet it down here. Not many players will raise AQ and bet it down, etc.I'd like to c/r to get SB to put in 2 bets, or at least one. If he folds, then there's no real difference.Being 3-bet would be an interesting spot. I'd probably call down still, though. But vs a tight player, who never 3-bets with less than TPTK, then you could find a fold, obv.What I was referencing when replying to your post, was the fact that taking it down on the flop isn't really good. We could make at least 1 more SB with a c/r, probably 2, because people don't bet/fold flops very often. We'd prefer getting called down by a worse hand. It's not awful to take it down, with a bet, but you're missing the c/r value, imo.

[Actuary 3]

Edit to say more concisely: I don't want to tie SB to the pot and make it huge, then finding a fold is pretty tough in big pot.. with outs and probably like 11:1 on riverWhen we are ahead, or get there, I think getting SB to fold is nice.I think some villains will pop the flop with TT+ not respecting my donk bet. "Why isn't he c/r top pair?" I think SSHE comnets on thisThis same villain may then bet his TT+ all the way down.I don't like building a pot with SB in there as it could get big.I'd like to increas chance to win with our marginally strong handAfter my bet on flop, when raised and SB folds, I'm getting 13 : 5 to call down.Considering I will easily have odds/implied to see the turn getting 9:1 immediately, we really only need to consider folding the river.On the river I'll be getting 8:1I have not "perfected" the analysis of looking at effective odds to call down and then considering one street at a time and then using the "info" of the fact he bets the river to decide if folding is best.Only my gut that without clearer read, we do win enough.... er... I think... to callDo you all find that if we were in pos (just for the river decsion here) that Villains will bet oop with worse hands if they have bet the whole way?I think this is a "more marginal call" when we are OOP and villain could check.

[Dogpatch 2]

Well, a Kxx flop is good for us. If it isn't, then we should be folding pf.I'm not sure I like the donkbet here. I know I said I did, but it predicates that villain is raising with less than top pair.If he's not, then we should be c/r'ing, because he'll certainly bet with less, or like 98% of his range.The idea of our donkbet, knowing he'll raise worse hands, results in SB being faced with 2 cold, which is good for us.The thing though, there aren't too many hands that are drawing very live against us, that we're ahead of. Like a lower pair has 5 outs, a pocket pair has 2 outs, only 67 has more than 5 outs. So we really don't need to protect against much here.I think I've completely changed my mind and I prefer a c/r. Not a ton of players will raise QQ and bet it down here. Not many players will raise AQ and bet it down, etc.I'd like to c/r to get SB to put in 2 bets, or at least one. If he folds, then there's no real difference.Being 3-bet would be an interesting spot. I'd probably call down still, though. But vs a tight player, who never 3-bets with less than TPTK, then you could find a fold, obv.What I was referencing when replying to your post, was the fact that taking it down on the flop isn't really good. We could make at least 1 more SB with a c/r, probably 2, because people don't bet/fold flops very often. We'd prefer getting called down by a worse hand. It's not awful to take it down, with a bet, but you're missing the c/r value, imo.

It is an ok flop. No real draws going on. But if he is really SLAP, is he gonna raise with worse hands? Also, by checking, it could go check check and give them a chance to catch up on the turn with some weird draw. I guess that's not a concern.But yes, I'm terrible at extracting value. I really like Limit and if I'm going to play it, I had better work on that skill.

[Zach6668 513]

I'd say the preflop raiser checks this flop through maybe 2% of the time. At the most.

[RISEorFall 0]

i like donking into pf raisers to hope to force 2 cold on more draw heavy boardsi dont mind it here, though. i could also see c/r if SB folds or c/c if SB calls.but im tired and have been running bad (the few days ive gotten to play lately)

[Zach6668 513]

i like donking into pf raisers to hope to force 2 cold on more draw heavy boards

I just want to clear this up, because no one seemed to reply to my main point.We can only donk this, and want him to face the 3rd guy with 2 cold when we know that he'll raise with less than TP. If he'll only raise with TPGK+, then this is a horrible line, because he'll almost certainly bet every hand in his range when checked too, and when we're ahead, we've only got to duck 5 cards, maximum for each of these guys. Usually less.

[RISEorFall 0]

I just want to clear this up, because no one seemed to reply to my main point.We can only donk this, and want him to face the 3rd guy with 2 cold when we know that he'll raise with less than TP. If he'll only raise with TPGK+, then this is a horrible line, because he'll almost certainly bet every hand in his range when checked too, and when we're ahead, we've only got to duck 5 cards, maximum for each of these guys. Usually less.

nice pointwhy i said i could also see a c/r or c/c depending on action.but i think a lot of players would still raise 99+ to a donk betalso most players will almost certainly call a bet so they dont look weak, even with AQ or AJ or something, so we can gain info on our opponent's hands.

[Actuary 3]

I just want to clear this up, because no one seemed to reply to my main point.We can only donk this, and want him to face the 3rd guy with 2 cold when we know that he'll raise with less than TP. If he'll only raise with TPGK+, then this is a horrible line, because he'll almost certainly bet every hand in his range when checked too, and when we're ahead, we've only got to duck 5 cards, maximum for each of these guys. Usually less.

gee, if I knew, I'd still lead into him so I could determine if folding to his raise or the turn UI was correct.I'm playing guesses and percentages and learning by trying things.

[Zach6668 513]

gee, if I knew, I'd still lead into him so I could determine if folding to his raise or the turn UI was correct.I'm playing guesses and percentages and learning by trying things.

Well, vs an unknown even.Do you think most players will raise worse than a king there? Are they that aggro? I know 99% of them will bet 99% of their range when checked to though, and we can c/r. You still get some info, as well as some value.I'm not too sure about the point you're trying to make here though.I wanted to point out that thought and see what people thought about it. Please tell me what you think, or what you think an unknown is raising that flop with... perhaps I'm figuring a random to be too conservative.

[Actuary 3]

I think I want SB out more than you doAt least when playing.I'd need more sleep to see if that's still true.Generally I like leading out when I plan to not fold...I think (funny how really don't have set lines. I still can't tell you what my SB rasing range is if I have UTG, MP3 limp to me and BB is lag...etc...)It is interesting to me that this hand has goten so much attention, which is cool and re-inforces the need to post a variety and never think a hand is beyond learning from.I like you.

[Zach6668 513]

Something I really like about this hand, is the preflop call.It doesn't seem like much, and a lot of people probably fold it, but I've upped my BB calling range significantly, and it seems to help a ton. I think I've said that once in this thread already, lol, but to expand.I had an LHE pro railing a session once (I can't name names), and it blew my mind the stuff he was telling me to call in the BB with. Like weak suited Jacks and Tens... It was SH, so you should probably tighten up a bit in full ring, but once I started defending a lot more liberally, I got a lot better results, I think. It felt like a big part of my turn around from that massive downswing/poor play stretch I went through.

[RISEorFall 0]

Something I really like about this hand, is the preflop call.It doesn't seem like much, and a lot of people probably fold it, but I've upped my BB calling range significantly, and it seems to help a ton.

i've been trying this lately, too. something about the odds you're getting to call a raise in the BB made me think i was folding too much. assuming the small blinds folds you're getting like 3-1 or better. you are out of position so im not going crazy with it, but ive been asking myself if the SB raised what would i call with, and have been using that as a general guideline.

[Actuary 3]

results: Of course he has AK.I'm really thinking more about folding here when he bets the river, even if I called the turn "without drawing odds"And for some reason (that doesn't look smart when I type it) it seems that players that bet OOP can be caled down more.